TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER beginning at 2H210...
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper
sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's
Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior
to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke
down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has
been placed in, after being disassembled., has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for
identification, that paper sack.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142
which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has
its number, exhibit number on it.
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I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper
sack is 142.
I think we can call the witness now.
The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.
Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FRAZIER. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr.
Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the
meeting.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley
Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised, that these two witnesses
have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The
Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the
assassination of President Kennedy. You have a copy of this, have you not?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?
Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.
Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?
Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?
Mr. BALL. What is your age?
Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.
Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?
Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.
Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.
Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?
Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his
real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana,
Patricia and Caroline Sue.
Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?
Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. Where is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.
Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?
Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. Huntsville?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of
Houston.
Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?
Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.
Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November
1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. BALL. How long was she there?
Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5
weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the
hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewhere, 4 or 5 weeks because they
were there a week before he got sick.
Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence
at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
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Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Where do you work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.
Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.
Mr. BALL. September of 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started
looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment
agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look
for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called
up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there
and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I
did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he
hired me the same day I went over there.
Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name
when you first applied for a job?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job
the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.
Mr. BALL. In Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment
agency?
Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.
Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you
and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.
Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave
you a job?
Mr. FRAZIER Correct.
Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an
interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.
Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a
full-time job or just a temporary job?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full
time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.
Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?
Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.
Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.
Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in
Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?
Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.
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Mr. FRAZIER Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. From the first day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you still do?
Mr. FRAZIER, Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Your own car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Still have it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your
sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.
Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. When do you quit?
Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.
Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders
around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the
offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see
primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and
work the same time.
Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas
School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.
Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the
first day?
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?
Mr. BALL. Yes, right.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you
can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use
just one route.
Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?
Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just
one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and stay on it until you
come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on Stemmons until you come right on into
Dallas there.
Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your
sister's home to work in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I
usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20. you usually get around there,
by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to
8 and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and
take off your coat.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and
showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.
Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the
building.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the
warehouse there.
Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot--
Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of
Houston and Main.
Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's
Exhibit No. 361.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see.
Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the
right of the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do
you recognize that area?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. What is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street
going up to the parking lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What car is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started
to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other side of the fence
there.
Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I park inside the fence but what I am talking
about--I park on the different side of the lot.
Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.
Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.
Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.
Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map,
there is a picture.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked
"parking lot No. 1."
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right
here.
Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park
in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?
Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right,
you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so
usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock there is usually not any cars right
here, but I say they are switching back and forth.
Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock.
Usually,
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there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but I usually
move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this
because it is harder. But when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this
area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and
it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.
So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine
times out of ten I come up right down here.
Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that
the parking lot where you usually park?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.
Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?
Mr. BALL. Right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how
do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the
route you usually take to the Texas School Book Depository Building in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?
Mr. BALL. After you park here.
Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that
little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like I was telling you
now, I usually park over in this corner. But at the time I parked right there. But anyway,
there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking
to you about.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.
Mr. BALL. Munger Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks
and come up here.
Mr. BALL. Houston Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across
the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line,
cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk right up, you know--
Mr. BALL. To the buildings?
Mr. FRAZIER Right.
Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.
Mr. BALL. Fine.
Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else
ride with you in the morning from home to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the
name?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just
called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the first day he come
to work.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the
bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me,
I assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on Monday and he
asked me had I ever seen him and I told him then no; I had never seen him.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to
work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she
told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with
Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.
Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any
memory of the date when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think,
would that be close to it?
Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October
because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been working there, 4 or 5
weeks and then he come there.
Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as
this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where
I am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on
it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders,
and I say, as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out some real
easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you
don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting
some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the
little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number.
Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.
Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?
Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.
Mr. BALL. Shelly. What floor was this on?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.
Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake
hands with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he
was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know,
living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know
yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so
I went up and introduced and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to
have you."
We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife
was staying there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there
and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?"
And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know,
and so I told him. I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"- I found out he
lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know."
So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me
no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like
Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be
just fine with me.
I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I
go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know,
some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like
that and some leave at different times than others.
But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home
on weekends with me and I said that was fine.
Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a
room in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.
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Mr. BALL. Did he say where?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over
in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his
wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the
neighborhood?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew
that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people
travel from one country to the next all the time.
Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I
will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't make friends very
easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of
years and you still might not know the name.
Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met
Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned
to him?
Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.
Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time.
Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, you know, and they
was going pretty good when I went to work there and I say we were still going pretty good
when he come to work there.
We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do
we have more order fillers.
Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you
every weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th
and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that. Does it refresh your memory any?
Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall
because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I might have at that
time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I do know he rode home with me every
weekend up to that but one.
Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home
that weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license
and he was going to go take a driving test.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's
test?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and
passed it what part of the test he was taking. Most men do, I say, they usually work at
it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out.
Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas
before you can get a driver's permit?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say,
first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the
youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if
you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving
license bureau there, they have an office in most any
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town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just
tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto
manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can
either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want,
and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office,
and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and
you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if
you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and
you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car--
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you
whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that
he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State
of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to
study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules
because you are not wasting any time but your own.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go
down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day holiday? Do you
remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went,, he rode home with you every
Friday and came back the following Monday?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on
Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It wasn't no added job
when he would come with me on the weekend. He would ride home with me on Friday and he
would come back with me on Monday.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a
driver's license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take
it.
Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?
Mr. FRAZIER. No.
Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's
license?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a
car, knew how to drive a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time
we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving
license then, and then naturally like I told you several weeks later, then he told me he
was going to take his driving test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he
was because most everybody in the State of Texas by. the time you are my age if you can't
drive a car something is wrong with you.
Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the
clutch was?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know,
most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when I bought this
old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about
it on the way home driving home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you
know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes
dead, there is no rolling
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a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down.
And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a
clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. You have to find a
friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or Ford, you know yourself the friction
points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive.
And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to a
car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it
may take you a couple of days to get used to it.
Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you
didn't have a clutch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I
said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive one guy than it does
to drive a carload.
Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.
Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at
a restaurant for breakfast?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy
anything?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember.
Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he offer to?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills,
change?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any
money.
Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each
other?
Mr. FRAZIER. No. sir: not very much. lie is. probably in your line of
business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one
of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I
have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some
talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.
About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about
babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get
that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I
asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I
asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the
weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work
and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work,
sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would
want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.
He would say a few words and then he would cut off.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about
that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about
the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked
him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there.
So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they
either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these,
say, like Germany or France somewhere like that.
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And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over
there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I
thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought
maybe that is how he got in.
Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had
been in Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what
he did there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more
interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he
liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said People in France was
more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there
2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason.
Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys
would really take you.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine.
Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.
Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the
Democrats, Republicans?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words
like that did he use?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy
who didn't talk very much at all.
Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch,
45-minute lunch hour, don't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you
on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. He did?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought
lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day.
Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me.
Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a
container?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a
grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag,
sack.
Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor.
Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys
go in and play dominoes.
Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room
is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the me, who work in the
offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee up there, I never did. Then you
have an assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there.
That is about all they have.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch,
brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his
lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch there and some guys buy
it there because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man
comes around and several of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the
catering service.
Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45?
Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch.
Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch
room on the second floor to eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you
see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. I say we
usually go up there to get something to drink and I say I have ate up there several times
but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.
Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables
there and sometimes talk or go to sleep.
Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their
lunches in there.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him
go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never
have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.
Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear
him--did he ever talk about guns?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?
Mr. FRAZIER No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an
automobile in any of these trips?
Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it he said he thought he
would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models like that you can
get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and forth for work that is about all they
are good for. I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth.
You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance."
But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so far as I know he
never did.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time.
Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that. he had tried out a car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that is
as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about anything--about cars-- except
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a while ago he asked me--we were talking about the clutch and automatic transmission and
so forth.
Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is.
Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the
bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just like any other bus at
any street corner you want to.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Is there a toil charge to call from Dallas to Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just
pick it up and call.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to
drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the
four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was
standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this
afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with
me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right
with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't
Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He
said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well."
And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and
I walked on off and started filling the orders.
Mr. BALL. This was on what floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go
to work at eight and I would break at ten.
Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break.
Mr. BALL. It was before noon then?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour?
Mr. FRAZIER That day?
Mr. BALL. That day.
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will
just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for a while and he comes
by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much attention but say like somebody else comes
in there strange, you automatically just look at them.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only time you
know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the only time other than like I told
you about talking about them babies and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some
questions about a book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with
books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title or something like
that would make the difference in what
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type of book they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and
you look at the price.
If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some
we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one they want, and
sometimes he would ask me something like that which book do they want and I would tell him
and that was about the only conversation we had.
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the
ride home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work?
Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40.
Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there
maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the train crossing the
tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just according to how bad the traffic is.
If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty
good headway.
Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did.
Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was
staying, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say
sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far from the house,
there and if I was going to the store I would just drop him off by the house, but if I
wasn't going to the store he would usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the
rest of the way to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block
from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would walk there just a
little bit.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two
or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you
said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't
talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather and babies,
something like that.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to
the house where his wife was staying?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether
I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, just to be frank
with you.
Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street.
Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth
Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on Fifth Street.
Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south?
Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west.
Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and
Fifth?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house?
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Mr. FRAZIER. It is west.
Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. About a half block?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. On the same street, Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or
south side of Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. North side.
Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or
south side of Fifth Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. North.
Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east
along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west
on the same side of the street on the north side.
Mr. BALL. On the north side?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west.
Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK.
Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night----
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. You brought him home.
Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the
next morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually
get up, right around 6:30 there.
Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home
that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking
about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he
was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk
too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at
the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing
with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.
Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her
about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. 1 believe I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and
I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.
Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually
come to the breakfast table about 7.
Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den.
Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or
Fifth?
Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook.
Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a
double carport more or less type of garage.
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Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less
carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook.
Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to
you about
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say--
Mr. BALL. Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting
there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them cartoons on for a
while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth while eating breakfast and I was
just finishing my coffee there and my sister, you know, was working over there around, you
know the sink there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on
the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up and saw this man,
you know, who was Lee looking in the window for me and she said, "Who is that?"
And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked
around and so I thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to
the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed my teeth right
quick and come through there and I usually have my coat laying somewhere on the chair and
picked it up and put it on and by that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack
and sitting over there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I
just walked on out and we got in the car.
Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having
breakfast?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all.
Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did
she?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up
and saw him I knew who it was.
Mr. BALL. You saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from
there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any height at all, you don't
have to be too tall to be able to look in the kitchen window there.
I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on
in there.
Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you
looked up and saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?
Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw
him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked down by
the back door there.
Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any
Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had
ever done that. I say. most times I would usually call him, you know, I was already out in
the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, you know, around to pick him up if he
hadn't come down but most times, once in a while I picked him up at the house and another
time he was already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick him up
and I usually picked him up around the corner there.
Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise
any questions in your mind?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he
just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the clock was. I knew I
was the one who was running a little bit late because, as I say, I was talking, sitting
there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it
was.
Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back
door there.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car?
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Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Was he near the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.
You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the
other side.
Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came
out?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there.
Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time,
you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving out of the driveway
so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house there to pick him up. I just usually
picked him up around the corner because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped
and picked him up.
Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work
on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was there a split second
and I just turned around and looked at the clock to see what time it was and it was right
amount 7:21 then and I went in and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the
house put my coat on and we left.
Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. All right.
When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say
anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of
glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the
back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package,
Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you
told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that
Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more
about it when he told me that.
Mr. BALL. What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right
as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen
some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some
varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.
Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.
Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way
you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end
of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate
and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
Mr. BALL. How wide was the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide.
Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches
or there. I don't--
Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in
a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?
Mr FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know
normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of
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heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that,
about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way
into town?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day
I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there,
so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor
and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and
come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one
block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right
down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot.
Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?
Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.
Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361. Anything
else said about curtain rods?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?
Mr. FRAZIER. He did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about
anything?
Mr. FRAZIER Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them
babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes
after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the
time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the
windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I
turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said.
"I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear
off the windshield," and the drops stared getting larger so eventually it cleaned off
the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the
windshield.
Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other
than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.
Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?
Mr. FRAZIER No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just
old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little
bit further we got into larger drops.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas
that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to
the President's visit to Texas?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?
Mr. FRAZIER He did.
Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and
somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and
as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains
coming back and forth and I was sitting there.
What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was
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letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start
you have to charge up your battery.
Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked
like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn't take
his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch
and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.
Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy
it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring
their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.
Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got
out of the car?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car
for a few minutes before I cut it off.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that
has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me
was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and
standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car,
and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I
was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I
followed him in.
So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I
noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository
and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch
where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.
One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars
sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when
you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars,
so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down
there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I
would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I
knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.
Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under
your arm like that.
Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.
Mr. BALL. Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.
Representative FORD. Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the
package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much
attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was
curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I
never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he
was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that
because
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I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in,
and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can
bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so
I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.
Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it
appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much
attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too
much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the
railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too
much attention on how he carried the package at all.
Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which, is the
Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, the course he
walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas School Book Depository. You come
around here and here is a black pen. Show us the course that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.
Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).
Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the
picture shows right in there.
Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.
Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Like I say, he was standing right about there
when I got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on
just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along
the fence like that. Just coming right on, right here now is the School Book Depository,
right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these
tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door.
Mr. BALL. Door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to
"XY" will represent the course he walked. It shows "XY".
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took,
is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?
Mr. FRAZIER. Eight.
Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind
him?
Mr. FRAZIER Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area
coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up and see him going
through the door there and shut the door.
Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the
railroad, tracks on Pacific Avenue?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.
Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your
location.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.
Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered
the door at "XY"?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
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Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?
FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.
Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is
fairly isn't it, it is clear of partitions?
Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.
Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it
up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left corner which is
marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston Street Loading Dock."
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Is that the door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.
Mr. BALL And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance
door.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right
there.
Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the
outside door.
FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside
door, is in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are
looking at over here.
Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is Sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk
through?
Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to
that man over there.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.
Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.
Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where. is the door that you entered or that he entered.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.
Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with
a ceiling roof?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.
Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the
first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.
Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see
anybody there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know
here is the door right here.
Mr. BALL. Whose door?
Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they
run this way.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?
Mr. FRAZIER. Here.
Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins
but just where the bins start and we will know it is the area.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere. right in here.
Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.
We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on
the other so that we can refer to it.
Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line
"AB", is clear, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side
there are bins, are they?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And are, those bins man high?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that
run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can
see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back.
In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the
other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window here.
Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here,
several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.
Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building,
the one you have shown us?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.
Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.
Mr. BALL. The main entrance?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.
Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the
front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the door through which
you entered the first floor, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the
garage where we have the truck. Let's see.
Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.
Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this
door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have
another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there.
Mr. BALL. That would be--
Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I
say, where we keep the truck.
Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed,
rather?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here
back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go out there and get
into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.
Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an
arrow going out.
Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning
walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders.
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Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go
first?
Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the
basement
there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?
Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are
you familiar with the Depository Building?
Mr. BALL. Only through the map.
Mr. FRAZIER. We have the
Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps
leading down to the basement?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow
that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used the biggest part of
the time, that is the one I go down.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling
orders?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had
some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they
were all there and put them in the space and so I took the elevator and loaded them on
with a two-wheeler and so I know where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator
and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.
Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.
Representative FORD. What time was that?
Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?
Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.
Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was
the early part of the morning.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?
Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe
putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.
Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not.
They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth
floor that morning you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far
as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and
glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are
pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of
orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only
time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something
about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.
Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that
building sometime that morning, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?
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Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. 12.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was
supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the
President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down
to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was
standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood
there until he come by.
Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.
Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?
Mr. FRAZIER, No.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this
boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how
pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and
misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL. Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked
upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step
down from the top there.
Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to
the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here
and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This
was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F"
there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top
rail there, was standing right in there.
Mr. BALL. Right in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there
knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.
Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you
stayed there?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly
got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they
backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car
came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down
toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles
backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same
type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling
down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the
conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy
because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught
when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand
still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the
direction from which the sound came?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down
there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them
railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was
coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the
President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were
standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops,
off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people
were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there
wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you
got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the
sound?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction
but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while
you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL. A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some
people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a
lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but
just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the
Building there.
Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer
came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was
standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.
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Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you
hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had
walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back
and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back
and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us
went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes
and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down
there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.
Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front
door, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand
around on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you
know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them
had taken their lunch outside.
Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back
near the door to the loading dock?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here
where you were. Come over here, please.
Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.
Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here
[indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].
Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came
down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his
counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right
out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.
Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in
here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here,
but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.
Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter
into the warehouse?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Right.
Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several
rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin
right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone
and everything out in here.
Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this
line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you
went downstairs?
From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this
area which was clear before you went downstairs?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close
to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around
there.
Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or
less right out over in here we have a--
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.
Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see--
Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest
of them stood around and talked.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we
were just right around in there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some
guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in
their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down
the steps there.
Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Come back up?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my
lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than
normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come
right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first
floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.
Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't
know what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked
us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who
to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President
passed?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps
there.
Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy
vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask
for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know,
like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he
told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information
where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we
went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office
there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there
could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your
lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.
Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the
shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't
think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two
would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think
anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45
so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.
Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your
efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your
lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking
him home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going
home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about
that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no.
So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already
dismissed him and he went on home.
Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he
wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't
going to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or
not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the
end of the day?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.
Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.
Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you
went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth
floor?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.
Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on
piece of paper.]
Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning
I used this one over here.
Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?
Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like
I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you
come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see
right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely
walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere
say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the
floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator
and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the
shelves.
Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or
the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see
this area back over here.
Representative FORD. Did you look over there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
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Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't
have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the
books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you
know where they go you can put them up very quickly.
So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle
very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in
the shelf.
So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the
elevator and come on down.
Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram
just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you
recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the
record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a
rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the
sleeve near the elbow.
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I
noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest
part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't
pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is,
he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of
jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?
Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers.
Had you ever seen him wear these?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or
less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his
pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers.
Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to
tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.
That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.
Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the
jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which
is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a
look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the
back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like
this.
Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I
didn't see it very much.
Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear
to be about the same length?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over,
folded over? Do you remember that?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it,
but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or
anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more
or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more
toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him
when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under
the arm?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to
hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and
put it down normal to the side.
Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the
package?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364
for identification, with reference to the width.
Was the bag about that width or a different width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say it appears to me it would be pretty
close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself
you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his
hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.
Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's
Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you
before, wasn't it, in Dallas?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a
different color, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in
the lab.
Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not
been treated.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
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Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been
treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been
treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back
seat of your car that morning.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color
I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process
that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a
little bit different color to me.
Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the let's refer to this
bag, that is the colored bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.
Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has
changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated.
Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of
your car that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't
have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very
similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so
I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.
Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you
saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and
another?
Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.
Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that
right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI
Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded
over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded
over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.
Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?
Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.
When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the
officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not
about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?
Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them
that was entirely too long.
Mr. BALL. What about the width?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of
the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in
front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front, The only time I did see it was
from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that,
I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.
So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his
hands, did you say?
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Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it
was.
Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the
colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or
just to show about how he carried the bag.
Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.
Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.
Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that
and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they
would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like --
Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package
or at the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very
much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the
package like that.
Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the
package was longer or shorter.
Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the
package.
Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package
extended beyond his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. This way?
Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.
Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean?
Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it
extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your
original estimate?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. How tall are you?
Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.
Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book
Depository Building?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?
Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.
Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before
noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only
time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of
books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen
him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.
Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.
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Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where
was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from
the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward
the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a
couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.
Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when
you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building,
and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever
I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put
their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he
usually did.
Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my
lunch up.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days
than the days that he rode with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he
rode with me?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked
together.
Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.
The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that
you knew of?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys
like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically
everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time
he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like
that.
Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it
shows the President's car going by.
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place
there?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or
less black area here.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in
front of me.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BALL. Billy?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right
Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That
mark is Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?
We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on
Commission's Exhibit No. 369.
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The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your
clothes, and so forth?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little
domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been
wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are
going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did
he carry any package with him?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't
Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?
Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him
wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all
day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with
just a plain shirt on.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask? I
think that is all. Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?
Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a
sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you
stand up here and put this under your arm and then take a hold of it at the side?
Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the
package?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much
attention--
Mr. BALL. Turn around.
Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had
this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that
and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell
much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front
like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from
behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width.
But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he
would have it cupped in his hands.
The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or
are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he
had it cupped in his hand.
The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands.
And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you
had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.
Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what
I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen
the package sticking up like that.
From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you
couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.
Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will
you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit,
the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your
armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right
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hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8
inches, 8, 10 inches.
Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little--
Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.
Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to
measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something
with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether,
maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.
Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as
to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.
You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came
from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.
Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were
standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.
Mr. BALL. That close.
Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were
probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.
Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve
that goes under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it
on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over
this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true
opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad
tracks.
Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.
Mr. BALL. West and south?
Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.
Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that
direction.
Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks
from this overpass.
Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.
Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will
put a mark on that.
Did any other people who were standing there with you express any
opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of
the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was,
downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing
somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing
on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.
Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial
photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.
Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.
Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on
that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.
Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.
Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing
down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look
over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved around
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here is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up
here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from
this general area over here.
Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.
Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.
Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.
Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.
Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an
"F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general
direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps
of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?
Mr. FRAZIER. Right.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?
Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying
before the Commission.
Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.
