TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY beginning at 5H129...

    (Members present at this point: The Chairman, Representative Ford, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, we have witnesses today who are Thomas J. Kelley of the Secret Service; Leo J. Gauthier, Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, and Robert A. Frazier of the FBI. They are going to testify concerning certain

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onsite tests made in Dallas at the scene of the assassination, and of preliminary studies which were made prior to the onsite tests at Dallas.
    May we have them sworn in as a group?
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Will you rise and raise your right hands, please?
    Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. KELLEY. I do.
    Mr. GAUTHIER. I do.
    Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do.
    Mr. FRAZIER. I do.
    The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, gentlemen. Mr. Kelley, will you take the witness chair, please? Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.
    Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
    Mr. KELLEY. Thomas J. Kelley.
    Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed?
    Mr. KELLEY. I am employed by the U.S. Secret Service.
    Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?
    Mr. KELLEY. I am an inspector.
    Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, of what do your duties consist, Mr. Kelley?
    Mr. KELLEY. As an inspector, I am part of the chief's headquarters staff. I conduct office inspections of our field and protective installations, and report on their actions to the chief.
    Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?
    Mr. KELLEY. Twenty-two years.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the planning of the onsite tests at Dallas, Tex.?
    Mr. KELLEY. I did.
    Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate in the making of those tests?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. On what date was the onsite testing made?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was a week ago Sunday.
    Mr. SPECTER. That would be May 24, 1964?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. What car was used for testing purposes?
    Mr. KELLEY. The car that was used was a 1956 specially built Cadillac, open, a convertible, seven-passenger Cadillac. It has a termination of 679--X, the Secret Service calls it. It is a car that is used as a followup car to the President's car when he is in a motorcade.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was that car actually in the motorcade on November 22, 1963, in Dallas?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes; it was.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why the car in which the President rode on November 22 was not used?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes; the car in which the President rode has been modified by a body builder in Cincinnati, the Hess & Eisenhardt Co. of Cincinnati.
    Mr. SPECTER. And do you have a diagram showing the dimensions of the Secret Service followup car which was used during the onsite tests?
    Mr. KELLEY. I have. It was felt that the best simulation of the test could be presented by having a car that was similar to the car in which the President was riding, which was also an open Lincoln convertible.
    Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to mark the diagram of the followup car as Commission Exhibit No. 871 and move its admission into evidence.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 871 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have diagrams showing the dimensions of the Presidential car?
    Mr. KELLEY. I have.

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    Mr. SPECTER. I would like to have that marked as Commission Exhibit No. 872 and move for its admission into evidence.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 872 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Without specifying all of the details, Inspector Kelley, are the followup car and the Presidential car generally similar in dimensions?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes; they are. There are very few, of course, seven-passenger convertible cars in existence, and these are specially--these cars are specially built for us by the Lincoln--the Ford Motor Co., and the followup car by the General Motors Co.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what seating arrangements are present in each of those cars in between the permanent front seat and the permanent rear seat?
    Mr. KELLEY. There are two jump seats that can be opened up for riders in each of the cars. In the Presidential followup car, these jump seats are usually occupied by Secret Service agents.
    In the President's car, they are occupied by the President's guests.
    On the day of the assassination, of course, the jump seats were occupied by Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kelley, have you brought with you two photographs depicting the interior of the President's car?
    Mr. KELLEY. I have. These are photographs of the interior of the President's car which is known to us as 100-X.
    Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to mark one of these photographs as Commission Exhibit No. 873, and move its admission into evidence.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 873 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    Mr. SPECTER. I would like to mark the second photograph as Commission Exhibit No. 874 and move, also, its admission into evidence.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 874 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what Exhibit No. 873 depicts, please?
    Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 873 is a photograph of the interior of the rear section of the 100-X, the President's car, showing the seating arrangement in the car and the jump seats are in an open position.
    Mr. McCLOY. As of what time were these photographs taken?
    Mr. KELLEY. I am sorry, Commissioner. I don't know just when those photographs were taken. They were taken some time in the last 2 years.
    Mr. SPECTER. As to Exhibits Nos. 873 and 874, do they accurately depict the condition of the President's car as of November 22, 1963?
    Mr. KELLEY. They do, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what Exhibit No. 874 shows?
    Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 874 is another photograph of the car taken from the rear, and it shows the relative positions of the jump seats in an open position as they relate to the back seat of the car.
    Mr. SPECTER. So that the record may be clear, which Commission number has been given to the diagram of the President's car?
    Mr. KELLEY. The President's car is Exhibit No. 872.
    Mr. SPECTER. And the followup car diagram is what?
    Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 871.
    Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether these photographs were taken before or after the assassination?
    Mr. KELLEY. Before the assassination.
    Mr. DULLES. Did the car that you used for this test---did that car have the seat lifting capacity that I understand the President's car had?
    Mr. KELLEY. No; it did not, sir. I might say that there is in the Commission's records photographs of the President's car after the assassination, showing the condition of it after the assassination, at the garage.
    Mr. SPECTER. On the President's car itself, what is the distance on the right

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edge of the right jump seat, that is to say from the right edge of the right jump seat to the door on the right side?
    Mr. KELLEY. There is 6 inches of clearance between the jump seat and the door.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what is the relative position of the jump seat to the rear seat on the Presidential automobile?
    Mr. KELLEY. There is 8 1/2 inches between the back of the jump seat and the front of the back seat of the President's car, the rear seat.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what is the relative height of the jump seat and the rear seat?
    Mr. KELLEY. The jump seat is 3 inches lower than the back seat in its bottom position. That is, the back seat of the President's car had a mechanism which would raise it 10 1/2 inches. But at the time of the assassination, the seat was in its lowest position.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what is the differential between the jump seats and the rear seat on the Secret Service followup car?
    Mr. KELLEY. The jump seat of the Secret Service car is a little closer to the right door.
    However, the seating arrangement is not exactly the same in these cars, in that there is a portion of a padding that comes around on the rear seat.
    But relatively, when two persons are seated in this car, one in the rear seat and one in the jump seat, they are in the same alinement as they were in the President's car.
    Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in response to your statement that the back seat was in its lowest position at the time of the assassination? How do you know that?
    Mr. KELLEY. That is a result of questioning of the people who took the car, the driver who took the car from the hospital to the plane. This was one of the drivers of the Presidential car. There was nobody who touched the car until it got back to the White House garage. It was in his custody all the time. And he did not move it.
    When it was in the White House garage, it was at its lowest point.
    Mr. DULLES. And there would be no opportunity to lower it from the time the President was shot?
    Mr. KELLEY. No, sir. The President, of course, operates that thing himself. But when it was examined, at the time it was examined, and it was in the custody of this man all the time, it had not been touched.
    Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of President Kennedy?
    Mr. KELLEY. He was 72 1/2 inches.
    Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when a man was placed in the same position in the Secret Service followup car as that in which President Kennedy sat in the Presidential car when the tests were simulated on May 24th of this year?
    Mr. KELLEY. I was.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of that individual?
    Mr. KELLEY. He was an FBI agent by the name of James W. Anderton.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what was the height of Mr. Anderton?
    Mr. KELLEY. He was 72 1/2 inches.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the height of Governor Connally?
    Mr. KELLEY. Governor Connally was 6 foot 4.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was that the height of the Governor himself or the Governor's stand-in?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was my understanding that Governor Connally was--6 foot 2, I guess. The Governor's stand-in, Mr. Doyle Williams, was 6 foot 4.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those two individuals were seated in the Secret Service followup car?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what adjustment was made, if any, so that the relative positions of those two men were the same as the positioning of President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
    Mr. KELLEY. The officials at Hess Eisenhardt, who have the original plans of the President's car, conducted a test to ascertain how high from the ground a person 72 1/2 inches would be seated in this car before its modification. And

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it was ascertained that the person would be 52.78 inches from the ground--that is, taking into consideration the flexion of the tires, the flexion of the cushions that were on the car at the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. When you say 52.78 inches, which individual would that be?
    Mr. KELLEY. That would be the President.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what part of his body?
    Mr. KELLEY. The top of the head would be 52.78 inches from the ground. When Mr. Anderton was placed in the followup car, it was found that the top of his head was 62 inches from the ground. There was an adjustment made so that there would be--- the stand-in for Governor Connally would be in relatively the same position, taking into consideration the 3-inch difference in the jump seat and the 2-inch difference in his height.
    Mr. SPECTER. Considering the 3-inch difference in the jump seat--and I believe it would be an inch and a half difference in height between President Kennedy and Governor Connally--how much higher, then, approximately, was President Kennedy sitting than the Governor on November 22?
    Mr. KELLEY. I am not----
    Mr. SPECTER. Would the President have been about an inch and half higher than the Governor on the day of the assassination?
    Mr. KELLEY. The day of the assassination, yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. And were----
    The CHAIRMAN. Wouldn't the height of these men depend upon the length of their torso?
    Mr. KELLEY. Well----
    The CHAIRMAN. You have some people who are shortwaisted, some people who are longwaisted. I don't know which either of these men were who were of the same height. But I know there is a lot of difference in men. We sometimes see the--a man who looks large sitting down, when he stands up he is small, because he has a long torso, and vice versa.
    Mr. KELLEY. Of course the relative positions are apparent from the films that were taken at the time of the assassination. It would be, of course, that judgment---and it would have to be a judgment. But I think the films indicate there was just about that much difference in their height when both were seated.
    Mr. SPECTER. Inspector Kelley, I hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 697, which has heretofore been admitted into evidence, and identified by Governor Connally as depicting the President and the Governor as they rode in the motorcade on the day of the assassination, and I ask you if the stand-ins for the President and the Governor were seated in approximately the same relative positions on the reconstruction on May 24.
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes., sir; in my judgment that is very close.
    Mr. SPECTER. What marking, if any, was placed on the back of President Kennedy--the stand-in for President Kennedy?
    Mr. KELLEY. There was a chalk mark placed on his coat, in this area here.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what did that chalk mark represent?
    Mr. KELLEY. That represented the entry point of the shot which wounded the President.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how was the location for that mark fixed or determined?
    Mr. KELLEY. That was fixed from the photographs of a medical drawing that was made by the physicians and the people at Parkland and an examination of the coat which the President was wearing at the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. As to the drawing, was that not the drawing made by the autopsy surgeons from Bethesda Naval Hospital?
    Mr. KELLEY. Bethesda Naval.
    Mr. McCLOY. Not Parkland, as I understand it?
    Mr. SPECTER No, sir; not Parkland, because as the record will show, the President was not turned over at Parkland.
    Mr. KELLEY. I was shown a drawing of--that was prepared by some medical technicians indicating the point of entry.
    Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to show you Commission Exhibit No. 386, which has heretofore been marked and introduced into evidence, and I ask you if that is the drawing that you were shown as the basis for the marking of the wound on the back of the President's neck.

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    Mr. KELLEY. Yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. And the record will show, may it please the Commission, that this was made by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda.
    And was there any marking placed on the back of Governor Connally?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes; there was a marking placed on the back of his coat in the area where the medical testimony had indicated the bullet had entered Governor Connally.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what coat was worn by the stand-in for Governor Connally?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was the coat that Governor Connally was wearing at the time he was injured.
    Mr. SPECTER. And was the chalk circle placed around the hole which appeared on the back of that coat garment?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were certain tests made by the Secret Service shortly after the day of the assassination?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. And were those tests reduced to photographs which were compiled in an album?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes; in Commission Document No. 88, we took some photographs of the scene of the assassination on December 5, 1963, from the window of the Texas Book Depository, and from the street.
    Mr. SPECTER. The number which you refer to bears Commission No. 88, which is an index number which was given for internal Commission document filing, but it has not been marked as a Commission exhibit.
    I would now like to mark it Commission Exhibit No. 875 and move for its admission into evidence.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 875 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Does a photograph in that group show the condition of the foliage of the trees in the vicinity where the assassination occurred?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. And is there----
    Mr. DULLES. One question. This photograph was taken, though, several weeks later, wasn't it?
    Mr. KELLEY. On December 5.
    Mr. DULLES. That was 2 weeks later.
    Mr. KELLEY. Two weeks later; yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. So the foliage would presumably be somewhat less in that picture, would it not, than it was on November 22?
    Mr. KELLEY. No; actually, the foliage hadn't changed very much even in the latest tests we are making.
    The CHAIRMAN. It was an evergreen?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was an oak tree, Mr. Chief Justice, I have been told the foliage doesn't change much during the year. They call it pine oak. Some people call it a life oak. But the people down there I talked to said it was called a pine oak.
    Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the foliage on the tree on May 24?
    Mr. KELLEY. I did, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. And would you state the relative condition of that foliage, as contrasted with the photographs you have before you taken on December 5?
    Mr. KELLEY. It was very similar, practically the same.
    Mr. SPECTER. And the description which you have just given applies to a large oak tree which intervened between a point on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and any automobile which would have been driven down the center lane of Elm Street in a westerly direction?
    Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, the purpose of having Inspector Kelley testify was just to set the scene. That completes our questioning of him.
    The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Thank you, Inspector Kelley.
    Mr. SPECTER. The next witness will be Inspector Gauthier.