William Greer
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TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE beginning at 2H112...

    Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.
    Mr. GREER. William Robert Greer.
    Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer?
    Mr. GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the Treasury Department.
    Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?
    Mr. GREER. Fifty-four years old.
    Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department?
    Mr. GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October 1, 1945.
    Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?
    Mr. GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really.
    Mr. SPECTER. And--
    Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then?
    Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school.
    Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background?
    Mr. GREER. I have to go back now.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately.
    Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, please?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And

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I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November 1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945.
    Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy?
    Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, that year.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before you joined the U.S. Secret Service?
    Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days.
    Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, please.
    Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor there part-time part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White House as an agent in November--1950 I went there. I was made a full agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from November to August 1951.
    Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since that time?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.
    Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car?
    Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him.
    Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, 1963?
    Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify those, starting with 344, what that depicts.
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.
    Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile transported to Texas?
    Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130.
    Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to?
    Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before or not. I would have to go back in my records.
    Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that Texas trip was at Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether we

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did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.
    Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's automobile?
    Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic.
    Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to.
    Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?
    Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car.
    Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car?
    Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?
    Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through?
    Mr. GREER The plastic; yes. You can see through it.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know?
    Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who manufactures it. But it is clear plastic.
    Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant?
    Mr. GREER No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally with it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to obtain a bulletproof or bullet- resistant transparent top?
    Mr. GREER. Now, or before that?
    Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand.
    Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had anything to do with anything being made for that.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof transparent top?
    Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22?
    Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it also on my report.
    Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best estimate.
    Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane.
    Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from?
    Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas.
    Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival in Dallas at Love Field?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a large

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crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook hands with many people.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field did he get into his automobile?
    Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes.
    Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got into his automobile?
    Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open?
    Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that motorcade?
    Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There was quite a few cars.
    Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car?
    Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman was riding on the right front, and I was driving.
    Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would have to slow down, I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to 30, where there was few people.
    Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of time. I could not say how much it would be.
    Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at downtown Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to 15 miles an hour.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way?
    Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large crowds.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?
    Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group of people there.
    Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to identify what that photograph depicts.
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we traveled in Dallas.
    Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents.
    Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and marked the name of the street on it?
    Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed to be Main Street.
    Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street proceeds?

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    Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have enough time.
    Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with Main--
    Mr. GREER. Houston Street.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston?
    Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street?
    Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 miles per hour, coming through there.
    Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any?
    Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point.
    Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the Texas School Depository Building?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present with the President's automobile, if any?
    Mr. GREER. I could not toll the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how many there probably would be.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, however?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade?
    Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the time in front of us.
    Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off of Main Street onto Houston?
    Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get in closer.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately behind yours was?
    Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than 10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close.
    Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

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    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make a right-hand or a left-hand turn?
    Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston.
    Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a right-hand or a left-hand turn?
    Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn.
    Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described?
    Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.
    Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of on the overpass.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?
    Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember.
    Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm?
    Mr. GREER My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per hour.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car which was in front of you?
    Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe approximately. I will say approximately 50 feet.
    Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how far it was behind me at the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn onto Elm Street, if you recall?
    Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building.
    Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?
    Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.
    Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?
    Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what.
    Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this underpass. It was a down grade.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down Elm Street at that time?
    Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?

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    Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
    Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.
    Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?
    Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds.
    Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise?
    Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say.
    Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire?
    Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.
    Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.
    Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all sounded practically the same to me.
    Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?
    Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.
    Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?
    Mr. GREER Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. As the time?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.
    Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?
    Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?
    Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I am now.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?
    Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way?
    Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw him.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.
    Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?
    Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?
    Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously.
    Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?
    Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.
    Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?
    Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.
    Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?
    Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time of the first shot?
    Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I don't really know.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot?
    Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking his way.
    Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass?
    Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass?
    Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and any of the other automobiles?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication?
    Mr. GREER. Kellerman.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio communication.
    Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast."
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?
    Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence?
    Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's automobile at the time of the first shot?
    Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit?
    Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a small "A".
    Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating].
    Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"?
    Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have any definite reason.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can?
    Mr. GREER. Yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of the second shot?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would be guessing.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the third shot?
    Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it?
    Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside.
    Mr. SPECTER. Put a little "C."
    Mr. GREER. This was for the third shot.
    Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much footage is in there at all. I wouldn't---
    The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand.
    Mr. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet.
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as you were driving along after the last shot occurred?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch what was ahead of me.
    Mr. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at that time?
    Mr. GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid acceleration?
    Mr. GREER. No.
    Mr. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it?
    Mr. GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say it

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wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a light car will be.
    Mr. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the vehicle?
    Mr. GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear.
    Mr. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear?
    Mr. GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour in low gear. That is estimating it at 40.
    Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how would you describe it?
    Mr. GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the contour of the road as it goes.
    Mr. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road?
    Mr. GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?
    Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.
    (At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)
    ( Discussion off the record.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed?
    Mr. GREER I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 miles an hour, I am sure.
    Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know, I called to them "hospital".
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the police car in front of you?
    Mr. GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, but I couldn't say right now.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with anyone in addition to that which you have already described?
    Mr. GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the lead car, but I can't remember what they were now.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I left the car at the hospital and I didn't see it any more until the next day.
    Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents?
    Mr. GREER That represents the windshield of the car.
    Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's car.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow--
    Mr. GREER. Arrow.
    Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation?
    Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that--
    Mr. SPECTER. On the car?
    Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington, I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that.
    Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?
    Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date?
    Mr. GREER It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time?
    Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you?
    Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me.
    Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before.
    Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination?
    Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been--I had never noticed it at any previous time.
    Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts?
    Mr. GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the windshield on the President's car at sometime?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the way it--
    Mr. SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the windshield of the President's car look like that picture?
    Mr. GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came back from Dallas.
    Mr. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield look like that?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the White House garage.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which is shown on that exhibit?
    Mr. GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I wouldn't say for sure.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time of the shooting on November 22?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown that.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House garage.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that windshield prior to that because I would have it was almost in front of me and I examined the car, I looked it all over when I got there, I saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever at any time previous.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to state--
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the Lincoln.
    Mr. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on that windshield were present?
    Mr. GREER. When I looked--
    Mr. SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November 23, the next day?
    Mr. GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star. These cracks were not there.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating--
    Mr. GREER. These.
    Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center?
    Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was this star-type fragment.
    Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on November 23?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking of the windshield as it existed on November 23?
    Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars that are here, the little shatters that are here.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch and a half?
    Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole diameter.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield.
    Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way?
    Mr. GREER No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a thing hit me.

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I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even known I was injured. I was in that position.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred?
    Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. I was--
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it would probably be 6 or 8 minutes, I am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.
    Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to?
    Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped alongside of him.
    Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that?
    Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked like an ambulance entrance.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get to the President.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to his wounds?
    Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit.
    Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.
    Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
    Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room.
    Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile?
    Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump seats.
    Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the side he was sitting on, that side of the car.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about Governor Connally's specific wound?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the conclusion that the President was still living?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time or so.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of the President?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the President.
The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the time of any other injuries on him.
    Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, and didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back.
    Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing?
    Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as shorts or undershirt?
    Mr. GREER Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit coat.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no undershirt?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time previously, I offered him a coat.
    He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He normally didn't wear an undershirt.
    Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you just said he was wearing?
    Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, maybe elastic or something like that support.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was there any medical individual awaiting your arrival?
    Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical people there; yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel?
    Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to help, the agents were there.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in attendance at that time?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I stayed inside

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the door of the emergency room most of the time while they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body.
    Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room?
    Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors, I would estimate there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and- so."
    Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency room?
    Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time.
    Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time?
    Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the emergency room at that time?
    Mr. GREER Not at that time; I was inside the door.
    Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?
    Mr. GREER Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room?
    Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?
    Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection there eventually was two.
    Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay?
    Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?
    Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.
    Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died?
    Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I knew that.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the President did die?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some reports.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?
    Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance.
    So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.

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    Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?
    Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.
    Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back?
    Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area?
    Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently.
    Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?
    Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?
    Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.
    Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?
    Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.
    Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?
    Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.
    Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?
    Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit.
    Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back?
    Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.
    Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet hole?
    Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder.
    Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?
    Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor?
    Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort?
    Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time.
    (At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
    Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through.

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    Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?
    Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye.
    Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye.
    Mr. GREER. I may be wrong.
    Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye?
    Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?
    Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here.
    Mr. SPECTER. Upper right?
    Mr. GREER. Upper right side.
    Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear. And what was the condition of the skull at that point?
    Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.
    Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there?
    Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.
    Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing?
    Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at that time.
    Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him there?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not turned over?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. I am not sure on that.
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?
    Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the Washington area?
    Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the President's plane left, was flown back.
    Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.

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    Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the President's car at some time?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do.
    Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the President's car looked?
    Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy was removed from the back seat?
    Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the automobile in Washington?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir.
    Mr. SPECTER. On November 23?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.
    Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or did the President's automobile weigh?
    Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000, but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on it.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.
    Mr. SPECTER. And how wide?
    Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my head right now; I am sorry.
    Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.
    Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.
    Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.
    Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.
    Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?
    Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, but I wouldn't know.
    Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?
    Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me.
    Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.
    Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me.
    Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

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    The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent?
    Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.
    The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.
    Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir: I never did.
    Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry?
    Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other.
    Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?
    Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I could.
    The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?
    Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
    With respect to the position of the President's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile that the President's car was from the overpass?
    Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I--
    Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I could see.
    Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there.
    Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going underneath.
    Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
    Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir.
    Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people?
    Mr. GREER No, sir; I haven't.
    Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it?
    Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.
    Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?
    Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law enforcement, I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something.
    Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around?
    Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any

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overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no one is on an overpass.
    Mr. CRAIG. That is all.
    The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions--
    Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions?
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
    Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December 10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim:
    "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately."
    Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on the radio. Mr. Kellerman did.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special Agent O'Neill or Sibert?
    Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; these two agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same thing. One of them left; the other stayed.
    Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did.
    Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever
    Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor.
    Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?
    Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.
    Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?
    Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.
    Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.
    Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?
    Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.
    Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the first shot?

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    Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time did I ever hear him say anything.
    Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital?
    Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't.
    Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you?
    Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that.
    Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car?
    Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but I didn't even reach down to work it.
    Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you?
    Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir.
    Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what?
    Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go.
    The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Greer.
    Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused.
    Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.
    (Short recess.)
    The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. HILL I do.
    The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill?
    Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter