TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. SAUNDERS beginning at 15H577...

    The testimony of Richard L. Saunders was taken at 11:45 a.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay. Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

    Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Richard L. Saunders.
    Mr. Saunders, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
    I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Saunders, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and his movements such as you may know them on the pertinent dates.
    Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, asking you to come, is that correct?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you recall?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. The date of the letter is June 22, 1964.
    Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. On June 24.
    Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission pursuant to the joint resolution of Congress, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that they may waive that written notice if they see fit to do so and I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and testify now?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That is correct. I will.
    Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, so that I may administer the oath.
    Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I will.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, first of all, I have previously handed to you so that you could read it, a document consisting of three pages, and which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked "Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Richard L. Saunders", below which I have signed my name. The document as I said, consists of three pages and I have marked on the second and third pages my initials in the lower right-hand corner. This purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963.
    I have asked you to read it and to state to me now whether or not this is a correct report of that interview. I notice that there are some little question marks that you have here and perhaps it is best to take them one by one.

                    577

Page 578

    Mr. SAUNDERS. In general substance, that is a correct statement. There are some minor clarification points which I would like to bring out.
    Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there is a question mark, apparently, next to the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 1, which sentence reads as follows: "He estimated that it took him a total of 10 minutes to arrive at his office after the president's car passed him and said that this would make his arrival time at approximately 12:40 p.m." Do you have any comment to make about that, sir?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. The travel time of 10 minutes is correct. The arrival time of 12:40 would be dependent upon the time of the assassination, which I am not aware of at this moment. In other words, if the President was shot at 12:30, I would have arrived at approximately 12:40.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the President himself passed you?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I was approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass, at the railroad overpass at Stemmons.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you walked back ?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I was in my automobile. My car was parked at that
underpass and I was outside of the car at a police motorcycle barricade.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact witness the shooting?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we could not see the actual site. We could see the building the Texas School Book Depository Building, but you could not see the area of the assassination from the area where I was positioned.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you left the position from which you walked, were you then aware that there had been some shots fired?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes. There was one of our reporters, Mr. Larry Grove, was at that point with me and I asked Larry what had happened and he said both Connally and Kennedy had been shot. At that moment a directive came over the police radio on one of the motorcycles that the shooting came from--and they directed the personnel--whoever they were talking to over the radio to the given window, which has now been purported that from which the shots of the assassin came.
    Mr. HUBERT. But you heard about it over the police radio of a motorcycle standing nearby where you were?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police announcement that the shots had come from
a particular window in the Texas Depository Building?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if they described the window on the radio?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. They said--I believe---it was the next to the top floor, an open window at the far right-hand side, and then there was evidently some communication there which I missed, and they clarified, "No; as you are standing facing the building it would be on the sixth floor."
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you heard that, had the Presidential car carrying the President to the hospital passed by?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; it was just moments before that they had passed by.
    Mr. HUBERT. Could you see the President or the Presidential party?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. We could see the party. You could not define anyone specifically in the car. There was what I now assume was an agent perched on top of the convertible in the rear, hanging on for dear life, and everybody else except the driver was crouched down in a pile, so to speak, in the car.
    Mr. HUBERT. What about Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. You could see no one. It was just a mass of people. The
only two people you could possibly distinguish were the rider on the back seat of the convertible, with his feet in the seat sitting up in the back hanging on, and the driver in the car. The car went by at a very high rate of speed.
    Mr. HUBERT. How long after that--after the shots--did you observe what you have just described?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, I heard no shots. From my point there was enough traffic noise and general commotion that you couldn't hear shots.
    Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that the President had been shot?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, not more than 1 minute after the car had passed.

                    578

Page 579

    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when the car passed, you were not aware that there had been some shots?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. And it was only then when you heard it over the radio, I suppose, that you knew it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, at that moment as the car went by, there were two, possibly three, cars came by a few moments later--not necessarily in a close group, but they came filtering through each in a high rate of speed.
    Mr. HUBERT. How far were you away from the Presidential car?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, 25 feet--two lanes of traffic.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where was your car parked?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. On the center median of Stemmons Expressway at the railroad overpass, approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass. There is a bisecting rail line there.
    Mr. HUBERT. You were standing beside your car?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police motorcycle there?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. There were several police motorcycles there purportedly to stop traffic on Stemmons as the Presidential motorcade came through.
    Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from the Texas School Book Depository Building?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, roughly 150 yards--100 to 150 yards.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the news over the radio, the police radio, what did you do?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I got back in my car.
    Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I was alone; yes. I was headed to the building, to my office, at the time I stopped there.
    Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take to go from the place you were parked there to your office building?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I took the cloverleaf off of Stemmons, which was another 200 yards south and turned back up Commerce Street and went through the triple underpass up to Young Street and turned--I mean--to Houston Street, and turned right on Houston Street down to Young Street, and my office is at that corner.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car in the street?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I parked it in our parking stall at the rear of the building.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked up to your office?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us now an estimate of the time it took you from the time the Presidential car passed by you with everybody stooped down in it until you got to your office on the second floor?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Approximately 10 minutes--I would estimate.
    Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked whether that can be done in 10 minutes?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, yes; it can be done in much less than 10 minutes; however, with the general confusion around the area, the traffic was somewhat stacked up and after waiting for a couple of lights to get to the office, which I had to pass by--yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you got to your office, did you see Jack Ruby?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I went directly to my office and as I walked into the office there were several salesmen in the office at the time, as is normal for noon deadlines on Friday, and I walked over to my desk and at that time Jack Ruby was standing beside my desk, or standing at my desk. He was not seated there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you engage him in conversation in any way?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I spoke to him--this is a rather heated time of day any Friday in our business, particularly in my own instance, and I was dubious as to where we might stand as far as publication of the paper, due to the events that had just transpired, and I spoke to Jack--I had called on him previously. I had known him for 6 or 7 years, and I spoke to him, and each of us in the office were conversing to one another, and when I spoke to Jack he was very obviously

                    579

Page 580

shaken, and an ashen color--just very pale he nodded in reply, if he replied anything--it was just in agreement, so to speak. We were making statements like "Well, this is terrible," and things like that, and he just agreed and nodded, and with that I sat down at my desk and finished some work which I was working on.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him thereafter?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, he was wandering around in the office. After I finished some immediate work--he was talking to various people around the office and there was a small television at an adjoining desk and we were over there watch-
ing it at the time just generally milling around in the office.
    Mr. HUBERT. This was Mr. Jeffery's office?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you first came in, was Mr. Newnam there?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I don't recall.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Newnam has previously drawn for us and identified as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam, a chart showing the general layout of the second floor, the rectangular upper right-hand corner with No. 1 in it, being Mr. Jeffery's desk, and this dot with the circle being the television set.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. I'm giving you this as a bit of orientation--this squiggly line is a glass partition?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course you see this is the promotion department?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. He has numbered here the various desks in the advertising department?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at this and tell us which is your desk?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No. 5.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that desk that you spoke to Ruby, as you indicated a while ago?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where was he with reference to No. 5?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Between 5 and 3--there are 4 desks there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Your seat actually is also between 5 and 3, isn't it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was he on the Young Street side of your chair or the opposite side?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. On the opposite side.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark a place would you say he was here
or would you show me where he was?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. May I?
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes, indeed. Just mark an "X" to show where he was.
    Mr. SAUNDERS [the witness so marked the exhibit].
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will draw a little line out from here and say, "Ruby
position when Saunders saw him"; is that correct?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you were on the Young Street side of Ruby, right?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we enter from this area here.
    Mr. HUBERT. I see, you came from the other way?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right. This is nothing but a blank wall with windows on this side the front of the building.
    Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark a place called "Y" and ask you if that's when you saw him?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. This is where you were "Saunders' position." How long did you talk to him--about?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just momentarily; just to speak.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter have any further conversation with him?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

                    580

Page 581

    Mr. HUBERT. Now, you described him as being "shook up and ashen white,"
and of course by "ashen white" I think you probably mean pale?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other manifestations which led up to what is really an intellectual conclusion of being "shook up"?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack is a very nervous individual and always has been. Having called on him in previous years and having known him from a business association over a period of approximately 6 years, you get to know an individual and their reactions to a certain degree. He was virtually speechless, which is quite unusual for Jack Ruby. He usually has a lot to say and will talk to you at very great lengths.
    Mr. HUBERT. That was immediately after you came in?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--this was upon my entering the office there I went directly to my desk and spoke to him, and he just had a very dazed staring. look on his face. To describe it further is a little bit hard to do.
    Mr. HUBERT. He didn't say anything?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not to my knowledge. Due to the fact that each of us were speaking to one another in tones of remorse and he was certainly replying just like any of the others, in agreement, that it was a terrible event.
    Mr. HUBERT. At that time, was it known that the President had been shot?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. It was not known, I take it, that the President had died?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No. There was some there were rumors around, possibly 30 or 45 minutes later, that he was dead, but it was not officially noted possibly for another hour or possibly an hour and a half.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps you had better go over some of the other question marks you have returning to the third paragraph?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in this sentence, "When Saunders first saw him, Saunders felt that Ruby was probably more shook up than any of the other people in the office at that time." I don't feel that he was necessarily "more shook up" than anyone else, but he was very obviously shaken by the events and the news of the President's being shot.
    Mr. HUBERT. You comment therefore is that this report indicating that you had said to the FBI people that he was more shook up or probably more shook up than any of the other people, is not an accurate statement of what you expressed?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I feel not.
    Mr. HUBERT. And the accurate statement is that he was shook up like everybody else?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. But not more so?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to the second page of Exhibit No. 1, I notice that in the fifth line you have a question as to a sentence reading as follows: "He never doubted Jack Ruby's word at any time and Ruby never turned out to be a bad credit risk but always paid off exactly as he agreed."
    Mr. SAUNDER. In our business association Jack Ruby's club, the Vegas Club, was not extended credit by the Dallas News, but it was what we term a "cash with copy" account. He was advertising with us steadily, as he always did thereafter. At the time I was calling on him, quite often he would place advertising copy very close to deadlines over the telephone, which was not convenient to run 10 miles out to his club and try and get cash, where we had a 5-minute deadline or 10-minute deadline. I, in my own workings at the paper quite often work with accounts, and if they tell me "I'll pay you tomorrow," I'll say "fine," and I'll go ahead and put the ad in the paper and go get the money the next day. This is what I would do.
    I will not say I never doubted Jack Ruby's word at any time. I think that is a misquote. It is a fact that' he did do what he told me he would do on each instance, but any time In any business when you're .dealing with someone who is on a credit basis where there is no credit that has been established, you can't help but take a tongue-in-cheek attitude, and certainly the statement makes it sound like I am trying to whitewash him, which I certainly do not mean to do.

                    581

Page 582

    Mr. HUBERT. It's too broad--all you mean to say is that you would extend him credit on the terms yon just described?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right---on a personal basis.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in apparently the 9th or 10th lines you have a question.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. "Ruby never carried a gun on his person except on occasions when Ruby would be carrying money."
    I have never seen Jack or known of him to be carrying a gun on his person, but as stated further on, I have seen him counting money in his club and place that money into a paper sack and at the time place a gun that was in or on the desk, into that paper sack and walk out with it, but never to be carrying a gun on his person, in such a manner as to be concealed within a coat or pocket.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your comment is that you don't know whether he ever carried a gun, except as you have just described?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; as I have just described it, that's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second paragraph--you have a little question mark there--"Ruby was known as being a woman chaser" what about that?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. "And to be particularly interested in the strippers that worked for him."
    Jack had related to me on occasion from time to time about that he might have dates with this stripper or that stripper, but not necessarily more so than any other girl that he might come in contact with. The point of being particularly interested in his strippers is somewhat misleading.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think that the word "particularly" doesn't represent the thought that you meant to convey in the interview?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--that's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next paragraph--there is a little question mark on the left-hand margin and I ask you what you have in mind there?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, this was just conjecture on my part, just as any other person following the various news medias that Jack Ruby had previously to the shooting of Oswald been down to the Western Union office and wired money to a girl in Houston, I believe it was, and then it was reported that he had a large sum of money on his person at the time of the shooting of Oswald. My conjecture was he might have had a gun with him for those reasons, strictly from past experiences where I knew he had a gun about his person or in a paper sack when he had extra large sums of money with him.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it's conjecture on your part?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And I think the way the statement reads it indicates it is conjecture?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, that's fine, but I did want that brought out that it is not a positive Statement.
    Mr. HUBERT. It's not based on any facts you know about, but it's your estimate of the situation from what you knew of him and of his operations?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see your question mark as to the last paragraph too?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, this is just my question here in regards to his telling me he had an injunction against another club advertising amateur nights of strippers. His point which he was attempting to show me one day--the injunction, which at the moment I was busy and didn't have time to wait for him and excused myself--I did not see an injunction and this was just his word, and it was just the fact that these amateur nights as such--my understanding of the law reads--you can't work as an entertainer unless you are licensed to do so.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, all the statement says is that some time before Ruby had told you that, and is it true, that he did tell you that?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right "* * * only a short time before the assassination." Now, this was misleading---it was several days before. It wasn't in terms of minutes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see no other questions, so I take it that otherwise this statement represents a fair and correct report of the interview with you, as amended and as clarified, or is there anything else?

                    582

Page 583

    Mr. SAUNDERS. I believe that will clarify any questions in my mind.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby at any time about the Weissman ad?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that ad at all?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I am.
    Mr. HUBERT. He never spoke to you about that?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. He never complained to you or made any comment to you whatsoever?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No, he did not.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to anyone else within your hearing?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the Weissman ad in this sense did you have anything to do with placing it, or do you know who placed it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
    Mr. HUBERT. You know nothing about how it got into the paper or who placed it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I do not.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Jack Ruby?
    Mr. HUBERT. When Jack Ruby left that day, when he left the offices?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No, to ascertain a time, I would not try and hazard a guess, because his appearance there at the paper was a very commonplace thing, and to pay any particular attention as to when he comes and goes, we didn't.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any independent recollection of having seen him after the first time you saw him when you first came in?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I'd say I saw him in and about the office for approximately 30 minutes afterward.
    Mr. HUBERT. You didn't particularly notice his departure because there was
no particular reason why you should?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. But you do think he was there for 30 minutes after you first
arrived--and after you first saw him?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking to Mr. Newnam?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. He was over in the area of Mr. Newnam's desk, where he was normally placing his ads--where he would normally be placing his ads--through Mr. Newnam. In my own recollection as to whether it was Mr. Newnam or another salesman taking care of him at the time, I can't recall.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to lunch with Mr. Newnam that day?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, if you know, whether Ruby was still there when the announcement that an officer had been shot, came over the news?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. The announcement of an officer having been shot was made at approximately the same time as I entered, that there was conjecture at that time as to whether there was an officer--now, the officer you're speaking of being Tippit?
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I would say he was not there at that time. There was conjecture that there might have been a Secret Service agent shot along with Kennedy at that time.
    Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That was when I first came in--yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. But the Tippit matter was considerably later, wasn't it?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--it was considerably later, and to my knowledge Jack Ruby had departed at that time. Now, he might have been in another area of the building, I don't know.
    Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe he had departed?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I don't recall having seen him, As I say, I can remember him being around for approximately 30 minutes and it was considerably longer than that before the report on the Tippit shooting came through.
                    583
    731-231 O--54-Vol. XV--38

Page 584

    Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact, of course, that the report on the President's death
came after the report of the shooting of Tippit?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. So you would think that Ruby was gone when the announcement of the President's death was made?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--to my knowledge.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed that in your statement which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, you have made some remarks concerning your knowledge of Jack Ruby and his striving for recognition and his desire to do the right things and his respect for authority, and so forth. Can you give us some examples that would illustrate these characteristics?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack was always hovering around people in the newspaper business for some reason.
    If myself or another salesman showed up at one of his clubs, it was almost the red-carpet treatment, which as advertising salesmen, we have no way to help him. We felt it was possibly a case of just wanting to be around newspaper people.
    I know for a fact that Ruby quite often talked of knowing this police officer or that official in a bragging type manner.
    Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a name-dropping situation?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Sort of a name-dropping situation.
    Mr. HUBERT. And that was consistent, and for a long time?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--as long as I knew him, and at any time that he could be around anyone that had a name, regardless of what position, whether it be in the entertainment business, whether it be a columnist, or whether it be a city official.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a specific example of that? If you could give us some specific examples, it would be helpful.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just quoting a specific example, with names---it's been so long ago that I would hate to hazard a guess. It would just be a guess on my part.
    Mr. HUBERT. What about his desire to do the right thing, which you recognize as a characteristic of this man, can you give me any examples of that?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, from the time I first knew him, he always wanted to, and in conversations with him about his business, which was normal in our contact, he would want to strive to make his club better than the next club, so to speak, and he would constantly point out areas where if there was any rowdiness or loud, drunkenness-type parties in his club, he would throw them out.
    Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it happen?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. I've seen it happen, and not 3 weeks before the assassination--a Mr. Donald Campbell and myself, another advertising salesman, had visited for the first time his club.
    Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. His Club Carousel, and at the time we were there, again it was very much the red-carpet treatment, wanting to know our opinions on his acts, and apologizing if the emcee had corny jokes, but he was working hard, and he had nothing but good things to say about most people, and the evening we were there there was a customer who had gotten a little out of hand, certainly nothing that you won't see in any nightclub, and right away Jack Ruby took offense at it and told the person to leave and threw him out.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he use force to do so?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; he just went over and very pointedly told the man "This is not allowed in this club. Will you get up and leave right now--out. We don't want you around".
    Mr. HUBERT. And the man left?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. And the man left. As far as seeing him use force, I have never seen him use force. I have heard that he did on occasion use force, however, it was suprising to me because I never thought of Jack Ruby as being one who could physically or being physically capable of using force. However, I was evidently mistaken on that point.

                    584

Page 585

    Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned as a characteristic of him that he seemed to have respect for authority?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in the word "authority" is taken possibly out of context. I should say--well, it's almost the name dropping--anyone with any degree of notoriety.
    Mr. HUBERT. And that would include of course people who had actual authority?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything concerning any underworld associations he might have had?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he express any opinion with regard to them?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. There was no name dropping there?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Or in that area?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express to you any sensitivity or consciousness about his Jewish background or the position of the Jew in society?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not that I recall Many people that I call on are Jewish, in my particular phase of business, and this area is very commonplace with me and never taken offense at or was there any reason to bring it up.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express any sensitivity in that area, or did you observe any?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, by way of closing this interview, I will ask you first of all if you have anything else you want to say?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Not that I can recall. I feel the statement pretty well covers any pertinent facts that I might be aware of.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been a very slight bit of conversation between us prior to the time this interview began, but I want to ask you whether in that slight conversation there was anything covered or mentioned that has not been recorded during the course of the interview?
    Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.
    Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. Thank you. I appreciate your time.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's all right, and I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.
    Mr. SAUNDERS. That's all right. Thank you again.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.
Thayer Waldo