John Newnam
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TESTIMONY OF JOHN WILKINS NEWNAM beginning at 15H534...

    The testimony of John Wilkins Newnam was taken at 10:51 a.m. on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

    Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. John Newnam.
    Mr. Newnam, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee

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Harvey Oswald and the participation of Jack Ruby therein. Particularly as to you, Mr. Newnam, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth, and his movements on the pertinent days. Now, I believe you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, asking you to be present; is that correct, sir?
    Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Newnam ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I received this letter Wednesday, June 24.
    Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter or the mail stamp, if it has a mail stamp, and if it doesn't have a mail stamp, what is the date of the letter ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The letter was written--the letter is dated June 22, 1964.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to having your deposition taken today?
    Mr. NEWNAM. None whatsoever; no, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Let me state to you that under the rules of the Commission all witnesses have a right to have a 3-day written notice, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice, and I take it from your previous answer that you do waive that?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I do; yes; absolutely.
    Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise so that I may administer the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I do.
    Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, sir?
    Mr. NEWNAM. John Wilkins Newnam.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?
    Mr. NEWNAM. 3124 Kingston.
    Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Forty-three.
    Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Advertising salesman.
    Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Dallas Morning News.
    Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. With the News totally?
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
    Mr. NEWNAM. Since 1936--January, I believe, of 1936--that's 1946-56, that's about 28 years now.
    Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that's about the only job you've held in your life?
    Mr. NEWNAM. That's the only job I've had--yes, sir; and in the various departments.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any official capacity as an officer or something of that sort?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, I want to show you a document which I have marked for identification as follows: "Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of John Newnam." I have signed my name below that language and I ask you if you have not signed your name below my name?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I have, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, this purports to be a chart of the second floor of the building occupied by the Dallas Morning News and particularly occupied by the advertising and promotion departments of that newspaper; is that correct?
    Mr. NEWNAM. This is correct; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you draw this yourself?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I did.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to take this document and first of all, holding it in an upright position so that your signature and mine are upright

    731-231 0--64--Vol. XV--35
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    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. But the numbered desks--all persons, if seated at those desks--
would have their backs to Houston Street?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; that's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you take the map, and dictate into the record who was the occupant of the various desks, and I think you have already done so as to No. 2, so you may start with No. 3.
    Mr. NEWNAM. No. 3--Miss Georgia Mayor, secretary.
    Mr. HUBERT. Who is she the secretary to?
    Mr. NEWNAM. She is the just an office secretary--no individual.
    Mr. HUBERT. By the way, before you go on--I take it that all of this chart and the position of the desks and the people occupying them relate to November 22, 1963; is that correct ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; and I was just having to think. There have been a few changes from the present back to then.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, if we can just put it as to the 22d of November, then we won't have to worry about who occupies the various places now.
    Mr. NEWNAM. All right.
    Mr. HUBERT. No. 3 was Miss Georgia Mayor ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.
    Mr. NEWNAM. No. 4---Mrs. Walker, secretary to the retail advertising manager.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember her first name?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Wanda.
    Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Wanda Walker?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Mrs. Wanda Walker. No. 5--Mr. Dick Saunders, advertising salesman. No. 6---Mr. Charley Mulkey.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
    Mr. NEWNAM (spelling). M-u-l-k-e-y, advertising salesman--these are all salesmen. No. 7--Mr. Larry Kramer (spelling) K-r-a-m-e-r, advertising salesman. Did I give you No. 6 ?
    The REPORTER. No. 6 was Mr. Mulkey.
    Mr. NEWNAM. No. 6 should be Mr. Ralph Crumpton, advertising salesman; 7 Mr. Kramer; 8 will be Mr. Charley Mulkey, advertising salesman; 9 Mr. Douglas Raiford; No. 10 Mr. "Rip" Collins---we call him by the nickname "Rip" Collins, advertising salesman; No. 11 Mr. Len (spelling) L-e-n Reynolds, advertising salesman; No. 12 Mr. Jim Packer, advertising salesman; No. 13 Mr. Paul Jones, advertising salesman; No. 14 Mr. Jim Willmon (spelling) W-i-l-l-m-o-n, advertising salesman; No. 15 Mr. Buddy Jones, assistant retail advertising manager; No. 16 Mr. Bob Johnson, advertising salesman; No. 17 Mr. Jim Sullivan, advertising salesman; No. 18 Mr. Bill Rea (spelling) R-e-a, advertising salesman; No. 19 Mr. Hal Cooley (spelling) Co-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman; No. 20 Mr. Jules Allen (spelling) J-u-l-e-s A-l-l-e-n, advertising salesman; No. 21 Mr. Bill Lawson, advertising salesman; No. 22 Mr. Byron Bates, advertising salesman; No. 23 John Newnam, which is my desk, advertising salesman; No. 24 Mr. Jerry Coley (spelling) C-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman; No. 25 Mr. Don Campbell (spelling) C-a-m-p-b-e-l-1, advertising salesman; No. 26 Mr. Kenney Ritchel; No. 27 Mr. Dick Houston, advertising salesman.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two documents. The first one I have marked for identification as follows: "Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of John Newnam," and I have signed it, and it purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963. I think you've read that and I ask you if that is a correct report of the interview with you?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The report as I read it is all correct---the second line of paragraph 2 which states, "A short time after he, Newnam, sat down," I would like to add "sat down at. Mr. Byron Bates' desk," which is adjacent to my desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. What again is Mr. Bates' desk, referring to the chart identified as Exhibit No. 4 ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. That would be desk No. 22.
    Mr. HUBERT. What change do you want to make that you sat down----
    Mr. NEWNAM. At Mr. Bates' desk, which would indicate I sat down next to my desk where Jack was sitting.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Your desk was, 23 ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I think that's all.
    Mr. HUBERT. I think you had mentioned something about Sanger-Harris?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes; in paragraph 1 reference is made to where I witnessed the parade on November 22--"at Austin and Main Streets by Sanger-Harris Brothers." It should read "Austin and Main Streets by Sanger-Harris Company."
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you want to delete the word "Brothers" and add the word "Company"?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, Exhibit No. 1 is correct; is that right ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which I have identified as follows: "Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of John Newnam," and I have signed my name below that inscription, and it purports to be an interview of you by Mr. Jack Peden on December 10, 1963, and I think you've read it, and I ask you if that's a correct report of the interview?
    Mr. NEWNAM. It is, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Finally, I have handed to you previously a document purporting to be a transcription of your testimony during the Ruby trial, which runs from numbered pages 28 through 46, and for the purpose of identification, I have marked page 28 as follows: "Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, Deposition of John Newnam," and I have signed my name below that and I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of all the subsequent pages. I think you have read this document I have identified as Exhibit No. 3, have you not?
    Mr. NEWNAW. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. According to your recollection, is that a correct transcription of the questions asked you and of the answers given by you?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think these exhibits previously identified, indicate that you have known Jack Ruby for some considerable period of time prior to November 22?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And in what way did you know him?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I knew him as a person--as a customer of the Dallas News, in placing advertising which I handled for him.
    Mr. HUBERT. I think you placed his advertising for two nightclubs he had, the Vegas and the Carousel ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he always come to you with his ads?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Not always because I wasn't in the office, but he would if I was there. Now, some of the other man would handle these things, in the event the man who handles the account is not present.
    Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would handle his advertising?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. How often would you see him for that purpose?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say two or three times a week average, depending on this--it would be of course dependent upon how much advertising he planned to run.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on November 22, 1963?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where?
    Mr. NEWNAM. At the Dallas News advertising department.
    Mr. HUBERT. The second floor ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The second floor.
    Mr. HUBERT. In the building on the corner of Houston and Young Streets?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what time it was you first saw Ruby on that day ?

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    Mr. NEWNAM. It was approximately 12:40.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time, sir?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that time this way: I watched the motorcade at Main and Austin. After the motorcade had passed, naturally, I proceeded to the office to take care of a few matters which had to be taken care of.
    Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to the office prior to going to see the parade?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I had been there early in the morning; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you leave to go to see the parade?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I left on our regular business--I left the office--I imagine around 9:15 or 9:30.
    Mr. HUBERT. Ruby was not there then?
    Mr. NEWMAN. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then about your fixing of the time at which you got back to the second floor of the building.
    Mr. NEWNAM. I knew the motorcade was coming to Dallas and through downtown, and since my area covers downtown, I was rather anxious to get as much done as quickly as possible to get back to the office, and after taking care of the business which was normal to take care of, I walked back to the--I was walking back to the office because it was just about as quick to walk as to try to wait for a shopper's bus, because the crowd was gathering.
    Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw the parade, how far were you from the Dallas Morning News office?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I was about--well, walking distance, I would say about 7 or 8 blocks.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk back?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Approximately what time do you think you saw the President pass?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I would say approximately 12--it must have been about 12:25 or possibly 12:26.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your position on Austin and Main and proceed to walk back to the Dallas Morning News Building, immediately after the President himself had passed in the motorcade?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you walked the 7 blocks or so?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was Ruby on the second floor of the Dallas Morning News?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; he was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing or sitting or what was he doing?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He was sitting at my desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. That is to say--No. 23 on Exhibit No. 4, is that correct?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time when you first saw him, that the President had been shot?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He was looking at a paper; I believe it was that morning's issue of the paper.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, was he engaged in drawing up the draft of an ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. This--he had already completed--this he had finished, yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that, did he hand it to you when he came in?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I had---just--someone had reserved the space and he had fixed it, prepared the ad and put it in the box, which he knew what to do--the procedure.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with him immediately upon your arrival?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Spoke.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual----
    Mr. NEWNAM. I just spoke in the usual manner--I said,, "Hi Jack" and he spoke back, and that was about all.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual that he should be occupying your desk?

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    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at your desk?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at desk 22, the desk of Mr. Bates, or does that telephone serve both desks?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Both desks--it serves both desks--yes extension 386.
    Mr. HUBERT. You have previously designated or stated the names of persons who occupied the various desks which are numbered on Exhibit No. 4 and I would like to ask you now whether at the time you saw Jack Ruby, to wit, 12:40 on November 22, 1963--whether all those people were seated at their desk at that time?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; they were not.
    Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of who was there and who wasn't?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, this is of course very vague. In our office people are coming and going and each tending to take care of his own routine matters and you just get to where you pay little attention to them.
    Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, was Mr. Campbell there?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; Mr. Campbell was not there he was out of the office.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Jeffery in his office, which has been already identified by you on chart 4?
    Mr. NEWNAM. At that time I didn't know whether he was or not. There were a number of salesmen in. I think Mr. Allen, Mr. Rea, and Mr. Johnson.
    HUBERT. In other words, they weren't all there?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. I gather that only a quarter of them were there?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, this was the lunch hour, and----
    Mr. HUBERT. And the Presidential parade, too?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right, and a number of them were over watching the motorcade.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was Miss Georgia Mayor or Mrs. Georgia Mayor there, or do you remember?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I believe she was--yes, she was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you describe just how you first obtained information that the President had been shot or that there had been any shooting or any rumors or extraordinary events along those lines. How did the news come to you, and where were you?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I was sitting at Mr. Bates' desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's No. 22?
    Mr. NEWNAM. That's No. 22.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's of Exhibit No. 4.
    Mr. NEWNAM. When Mr. Coley, with several other members of the staff, I believe Mr. Mulkey was with him, and I don't recall any others--came back and said on entering the office that the President had been shot--that there had been a shooting.
    Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
    Mr. NEWNAM. This--I would place it--approximately 12:45.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are judging it in this way--that it was about 5 minutes after you had come in?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby sitting next to you still?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether he also heard that news?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He did.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he did?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, Mr. Coley just passed down the aisle and made the remark as he entered and of course all those sitting there heard it. I assume that Jack heard the same statement I did.
    Mr. HUBERT. But other than your assumption that he must have heard it because it was said--in a way, I take it, that everybody within earshot could have heard it?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there any reaction of a particular nature that you recall by Jack Ruby immediately upon hearing
    Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, the reaction would be of disbelief--I think--stunned disbelief.
    Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about his attitude or your own ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I think--of course, I am assuming that he felt that way--that was the look he had on his face. Of course, this was my belief also.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don't recall he said anything.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he seemed to have what you have described as a shocked look?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that, do you know?
    Mr. NEWNAM. After that--of course confusion reigned--as was given in the testimony at the trial. The news spread quickly. My wife called me to ask me if I knew anything about it and, of course, it hadn't been verified at the time. She had heard what he had heard. People were calling the school where she worked to find out, or this, that, and the other. Advertisers began to call to cancel advertising they had placed for the weekend--over Saturday and Sunday and possibly Monday.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack Ruby still sitting next to you during the events you are now describing?
    Mr. NEWNAM. During the events I am now describing, Jack was at my desk part of the time and other times we were over at Mr. Jeffery's office watching what news the television had of the events.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk over to Mr. Jeffery's office?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. With Ruby?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I didn't walk with him particularly. We just went--when we found out the television was on--we just--with others--we went to the office.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ruby knew that advertisers were calling in canceling their ads?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He did; yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He so expressed himself.
    Mr. HUBERT. He so expressed himself on what?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, sir, he was standing right next to me when I accepted several calls of this nature.
    Mr. HUBERT. Standing next to you--where?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The one time he was standing next to me as I was accepting a call in front of desks 3 and 4, the desks of our secretaries. There is an inner-office switchboard which accepts calls for the department, and I was there and I just accepted one call there, and Jack was with me at that time.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate that he was aware that an advertiser was canceling?
    Mr. NEWNAM. He knew they were; yes, sir. This was just in conversation.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state that your conversation with others that he could hear was such that it would be understood by anybody that you were accepting the cancellations ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. At that time had he told you anything about canceling his own ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Not at that time; no, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you walk over with him to Mr. Jeffery's office where the television set was ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. We made several trips over there. As a matter of fact, he was over there at times when I was doing some work, and it was just a matter of back and forth. In other words, the. promotion people were listening and everybody was trying to figure out what was going on--there was general confusion all over the office.
    Mr. HUBERT. I don't suppose that everybody was in Mr. Jeffery's office, but that some were looking through the glass?
    Mr. NEWNAM. There were a number inside and most of them outside because

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the offices--the nature of the office--its size--would prohibit everyone getting inside.
    Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby's attitude throughout this period ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. His attitude was that of most everyone else I would say of everyone else the attitude of disbelief, an emotional upset, I would say.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I never noticed he was crying; no, sir. This was brought out when I was questioned before, but I don't recall that he was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall--I think you stated in here that he called up his sister, and had you listen to her--where did that take place?
    Mr. NEWNAM. This took place at my desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. He called her from your desk ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him call her ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know her, did you ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. How did he come to put you on the phone? Give us the details about that episode.
    Mr. NEWNAM. I was using the telephone on the desk behind my desk, these are telephones servicing desks 20 and 21.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's on Exhibit No. 4?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir--trying to contact an account of mine regarding an ad running the next day. Jack used the telephone at my desk to call his sister, and when I had completed my call, he just motioned to me--we were standing almost side-by-side, and he motioned to me to listen and held the phone up to my ear.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to the lady then?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I didn't say a word then; no, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
    Mr. NEWNAM. She was--I recall one particular statement she made, she says, "My God, what do they want?" And--she sounded very upset. Of course. I couldn't tell whether she was crying or not, but I would assume she was, and I didn't say a word to her, and I just handed the phone back to Jack.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything to her?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was trying to calm her down, but I don't recall any specific conversation.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether that conversation with his sister took place before you went to look at the TV or after, or can you place the time in any way?
    Mr. NEWNAM. This was after--I believe we had made--I had made one trip over there to just check what news there was, and I believe this was after. Now, the exact time--what time I don't believe I could place it.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Ruby was there when the announcement of the President's death came over the air?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his reaction was at that time?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't recall--whether I even was talking to him or even saw him when that came over the air.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he was there when the announcement of the shooting of Tippit came over the air by radio or television?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I believe he was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment or did he have any observable reaction as to that news?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't recall any statement to that effect. I don't recall even where he was when that news came over the television.
    Mr. HUBERT. But you think he was there?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The exact time I couldn't place specifically--I would say between--it was 1:30 or thereafter.
    Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that, sir?

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    Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that from the standpoint that he paid me some money for some ads he had run a few days before or a day before and he didn't have enough money to pay me for the ad he was running the next day, so I just made the remark "I'll see you next week," which was routine in fact, and he said--he just nodded and said, "yes," and he walked on out the door. I place that time also by the fact that----
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you leave that--that paying of the money doesn't of itself, as I understand it, fix the time unless you relate it to something else ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No; I'm relating it to you because that was the last transaction we had. That was the last time I saw Jack. Immediately thereafter there were a number of us who were getting together to try to figure out where we might go to have lunch and it was before 2 o'clock because our cafeteria closes ordinarily at 2 o'clock, and we finally wound up going to the cafeteria eating a light lunch. This is how I place the time approximately.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then the last dealing you had with Ruby was the payment of the money?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. In point of time you think that was approximately 20 minutes prior to the 2 o'clock shutclown of the cafeteria?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the cafeteria it was about to close?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Really, I don't know whether they were going to close that day or not. I'll be real frank with you--it ordinarily does at 2 o'clock; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you place the time of his departure relative to the time that you first heard that the President was dead?
    Mr. NEWNAM. That might be a little difficult to do.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's approach it this way: Is it your recollection that he was present when the announcement came that the President was dead?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I'm sure he was in the office.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes it in your mind that way, so that you are able to say "I'm sure he was there"?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The only thing that would fix it would be the fact that the announcement was made, but I don't even recall what time the announcement was made now. I may be assuming that he was there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any reaction of his to the fact of the President's death ? You see, there was first the announcement of the shooting?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And then there was the Tippit shooting and then ultimately of course came the announcement of the President's death. Is there any recollection in your mind as to his reaction to that ultimate announcement of the death?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No specific; no, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. After he paid you the money, did you immediately leave with your friends to go and find something to eat?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. How much time elapsed between the time he paid you the money and you left?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say some 20 or 30 minutes, I don't know exactly.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's get at it this way: How much time elapsed, do you think, between the time of the announcement of the President's death and the time you left to go to eat?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I don't recall really the specific time the announcement was made. This leaves me a little bit undecided as to the specific amount of time that would elapse in there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when you heard of the President's death?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I was still in the department.
    Mr. HUBERT. But were you at your desk?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't recall that. We were moving from desk to desk--the boss had me handling cancellations or whatever happened to come up--we were still trying to take care of the business and do what was necessary. I do not recall exactly where I was when that announcement came out.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Could it be possible that Ruby left as early as, say 1 o'clock or 1:15?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I wouldn't think so--I wouldn't think so.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll get at it at still another way: You first came in of course at 12:40?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Which is a rather definite point--now, when Jack paid you the money, which was the last time you saw him--is another point--how much time do you think there would be between those two points, to wit, 12:40 and the time he paid you the money?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I'm--approximately about 50 minutes.
    Mr. HUBERT. That would mean he left approximately at 1:30?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Around that; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by him--had he told you then that he was canceling his ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you that at all, then, did he?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don't recall that he told me he was canceling it. I believe it was discussed. He had mentioned something about he might, but he didn't cancel the ad; it was changed.
    Mr. HUBERT. Changed really to state he was going to be closed ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether he would close the club unless he knew the President was dead ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I think the action that he observed of what was going on with other people, motivated Jack to close his club.
    Mr. HUBERT. Or to make the announcement?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. He did say he was going to close his club before he left?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't know that he specifically said that--I don't recall it--he might have.
    Mr. HUBERT. At the time that he spoke to his sister and you also listened to her, had the announcement of the President's death been made yet?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't believe it had. We knew that the shooting had happened. We knew that he had been shot. I don't believe that we knew specifically that he was dead. I don't recall the exact time that we learned this information.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby talk to you about the Weissman ad--you're familiar with that ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Ruby about that--what he said to you, or did he say anything?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I recall there was some brief conversation about it relative to the fact that he didn't particularly think it was in good taste or something like that.
    Mr. HUBERT. When did that conversation take place, do you recall ? Was it on November 22? Or, could it have been earlier?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it had to be the 22d--no one knew about it before then. It must have been right after I came to the office and I was standing at Mr. Bates' desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was he remonstrating with you or what was his general attitude about it?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I think he just was discussing it.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was he complaining that the paper had taken the ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't recall that he particularly complained about it. He was concerned about the nature of the ad.
    Mr. HUBERT. How did he express his concern?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, he was--of course, he had read the ad the night before. It had come out on the street in the early edition, but he was specifically--as to what he said by words, I don't recall. It's just a matter that he was commenting on it. I remember that. All the time I was doing some work trying to get some of the stuff out of the way.

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    Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the announcement of the shooting at all?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you don't remember the exact words, but whatever they were, he addressed himself to the Weissman ad and your recollection is that whatever he said, showed some concern, as you put it?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Some concern--yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was it a concern favorable to the content or impact of the Weissman ad or the converse?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I would say the converse.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was opposed to the Weissman ad?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And that concern was as to "Why should such an adv. appear to be taken by the newspapers"?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; this would be the general concern.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have said that you are quite certain that the news of the Tippit shooting was known to you and to Jack prior to Jack's leaving the office?
    Mr. NEWNAM. There was knowledge that--whether the man's name was known--but it was known that an officer had been shot.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you think Jack knew that prior to leaving?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I think so.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes that in your mind?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No; except the fact that I think he heard it and other people who were there at the time probably heard it at the same time.
    Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your thought is that his time of departure, which was contemporaneous with the payment of some money over to you was at approximately 1:30?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been before the announcement of the President's death, or after?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; because I don't recall exactly what time that announcement came over.
    Mr. HUBERT. He did mention to you that he was going to close his clubs?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was--it had been discussed. He didn't say specifically that he was-- I don't recall that he did.
    Mr. HUBERT. But he was considering it in any case?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I'm sure he was.
    Mr. HUBERT. And whatever he said to you indicated that he was considering closing the club ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; but he didn't tell me at the time, or we could have gone ahead and made the changes then.
    Mr. HUBERT. But the changes were in fact not made by you?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of what period of time which elapsed between 12:40, when you first came in, and the telephone conversation by Ruby with his sister?
    Mr. NEWNAM. It would be be just a guess--15 minutes--20 minutes-- perhaps.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you put it the other way--how long before he left was this call between Ruby and his sister?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I would approximate that this call must have been made around 1 o'clock. Now, to nail it down exactly how I approximate that--I'm just not real sure.
    Mr. HUBERT. There's no record kept of a call of that sort, is there?
    Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; it was after--of course, it was after the 12 noon deadline, which our deadline is for either getting ads in the paper or taking them out. This is normal procedure, however, since what happened--naturally we disregarded deadlines and were trying to take care of the needs of those advertisers--whatever they would like to do.
    Mr. HUBERT. In your judgment, it was about 15 or 20 minutes after you came in, which was at 12:40?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. This was the time of the phone call?

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    Mr. NEWNAM. I would guess so.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who placed the Weissman ad or did you have any dealings with the placement of the Weissman ad ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I had no dealings at all with the placement of the ad, nor do I know the gentleman who placed it.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all. Let me ask you this--we have had a few words of conversation prior to the beginning of this deposition, principally in connection with your drawing of this map or chart, Exhibit No. 4. Has there been any conversation between us that has not been substantially covered in the deposition since it began?
    Mr. NEWNAM. There was one thing which might be pertinent which I think--the question has been brought up about being able to see the Texas School Book Depository from my desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was not part of the conversation here this morning.
    Mr. NEWNAM. Right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Since you have brought it up, I would like to have your comments on that point?
    Mr. NEWNAM. And the Building--that portion of the Building cannot be seen from my desk as such.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can it be seen from Mr. Jeffery's office?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it can be seen from Mr. Jeffery's desk and Mr. Saunders' desk.
    Mr. HUBERT. Or any place near the intersection of Young and Houston Streets, I take it?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Well, outside of course you can see it. All of the desks--the reason you can't see it from my desk would be this post right here.
    Mr. HUBERT. It's how far away ?
    Mr. NEWNAM. The Building?
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes; how far from the second floor to the Texas Depository Building by way of line of sight?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, my line of sight estimate would be--I'd have to go by blocks. There's the Plaza, and then there's the block the hotel is in, and the courthouse--two courthouses--5 blocks.
    Mr. HUBERT. About 5 blocks?
    Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other comment you wish to make?
    Mr. NEWNAM. I don't believe so, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. You've been most cooperative and helpful. This is something we didn't have at all.
    Mr. NEWNAM. Thank you. I hope that takes care of it.
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I hope so, and that is all.