TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH beginning at 7H531...

    The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

    Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

                531

Page 532
    Mr. SMITH. I do.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
    Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.
    Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
    Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.
    Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
    Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
    Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?
    Mr. SMITH. That's right.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
    Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.
    Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?
    Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3 1/2 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.
    Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?
    Mr. SMITH. Correct.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.
    Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?
    Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?
    Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?
    Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.
    Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?
    Mr. SMITH. That's correct.

                532

Page 533
    Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?
    Mr. SMITH. Correct.
    Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?
    Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?
    Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?
    Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.
    Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?
    Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when arrived at the scene.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?
    Mr. SMITH. Three of us.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?
    Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?
    Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?
    Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm. Street; is that right?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on

                533

Page 534
the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building from which the shots were fired?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?
    Mr. SMITH. Right.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that .particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.
    Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?
    Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.
    Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?
    Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.
    Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?
    Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because. I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.
    Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the

                534

Page 535
triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?
    Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.
    Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?
    Mr. SMITH. No.
    Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?
    Mr. SMITH. Correct.
    Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.
    Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
    Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
    Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
    Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
    Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
    I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
    Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.

                535

Page 536
    Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the---let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to 'look up there before you heard the shots?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
    Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?
    Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
    Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?
    Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?
    Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.
    Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?
    Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?
    Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.

                536

Page 537
    Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait---let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
    Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
    Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?
    Mr. SMITH. Right.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after I o'clock. I don't remember; no.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?
    Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.
    Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
    Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
    Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--- what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.
    Mr. LIEBELER There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?
    Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?
    Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
    Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.

                537

Page 538
    Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?
    Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.
    Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?
    Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.
    Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?
    Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.
    Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.
    Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars.
    Mr. SMITH. No sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH Yes sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?
    Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?
    Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?
    Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?
    Mr. SMITH. It is back off.
    Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?
    Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.
    Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed

                538

Page 539
over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?
    Mr. SMITH. They merge.
    Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?
    Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.
    Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stem-mons Freeway?
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about, that you think the Commission should know.
    Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.
    Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.
    Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.
Welcome Eugene Barnett