TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL beginning at 5H33...

    The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on May 13, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
    Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford; and Allen W. Dulles, members.
    Also present were J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant Revill, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of Detective V. J. Brian with particular regard to alleged conversation with Special Agent James P. Hosty, Jr., of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, claimed to have occurred on November 22, 1963, in the afternoon, and also concerning the facts surrounding the discussion of Commission Exhibits 710 and 711.
    What are those--those are the affidavits?
    Mr. RANKIN. That is his affidavit and Detective Brian's.
    The CHAIRMAN. Those are the affidavits that you made in that regard.
    Would you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn?
    Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?
    Lieutenant REVILL. I do, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.
    Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Revill, will you state your name and place of residence for the record, please?
    Mr. REVILL My name is Jack Revill. I reside at 5617 Madowics, Dallas, Tex.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an official connection with the police department of Dallas?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do.
    Mr. RANKIN. What is that?
    Mr. REVILL. I am presently a lieutenant of police of the Dallas Police Department.
    Mr. RANKIN. How long have you occupied that position?
    Mr. REVILL. I was promoted to lieutenant June 26, 1958.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any particular area of responsibility?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I am presently in charge of the criminal intelligence section.
    Mr. RANKIN. Have you been in charge of that section since November 22 of 1963?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have.
    Mr. RANKIN. What are the functions of your work in that job?
    Mr. REVILL. My unit--our primary responsibility is to investigate crimes of an organized nature, subversive activities, racial matters, labor racketeering, and to do anything that the chief might desire. We work for the chief of police. I report to a captain who is in charge of the special service bureau.
    Mr. RANKIN. Who is that?
    Mr. REVILL. Capt. Pat Gannaway.
    Mr. RANKIN. How long have you reported to him?
    Mr. REVILL. In my present capacity?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. Since I have been assigned to the criminal intelligence section.
    Mr. RANKIN. So that was for all times since and on November 22, 1963?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is true.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know James P. Hosty, Jr.?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do.
    Mr. RANKIN. How long have you known him?
    Mr. REVILL. I have known Jim, Mr. Hosty, since 1959, when I took over the intelligence section.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him on November 22?

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    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.
    Mr. RANKIN. Where.
    Mr. REVILL. In the basement of the city hall.
    Mr. RANKIN. Just before you saw Special Agent Hosty, where had you been?
    Mr. REVILL. I had been at the Texas School Book Depository.
    Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there?
    Mr. REVILL. We conducted a systematic search of the building, evacuated the people working in the building, and took names, addresses, and phone numbers of all of these people before they were permitted to leave.
    Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone working with you there?
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Who?
    Mr. REVILL. Numerous people.
    Mr. RANKIN. I see. Was Detective Brian with you there?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. I had taken Detective Brian with me from the Trade Mart, Dallas Trade Mart, upon hearing of the shots being fired at Mr. Kennedy. I took Detective Brian and two other officers assigned to my unit, Detective R. W. Westphal and Detective Tarver, O. J. Tarver.
    Mr. RANKIN. How did you come back to the police department?
    Mr. REVILL. By automobile.
    Mr. RANKIN. By car?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir, I had Detectives Brian, Tarver, and Westphal.
    Mr. RANKIN. They were all in the car with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. And which way did you enter the building?
    Mr. REVILL. The Main Street ramp into the basement of the city hall.
    Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?
    Mr. REVILL. It must have been about 2:45, 2:50.
    Mr. RANKIN. All of these officers were with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see Special Agent Hosty?
    Mr. REVILL. If I might explain that, I followed Mr. Hosty into the basement of the city hall. He drove into the basement, parked his car, I did the same, and Mr. Hosty departed from his car, ran over to where I was standing, Detective Brian and I.
    The other two officers, Westphal and Tarver, as well as I recall, had remained in the rear talking to some other officers. I don't know who they were At that time everything was mass confusion, and we were all upset.
    Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission where you parked the car with reference to the point where you saw Agent Hosty?
    Mr. REVILL. I got out of my car, and we have two attendants assigned to the basement, two Negro attendants, and one of these individuals parked my vehicle for me, I don't know where he parked it. But as I got out of the car, Mr. Hosty ran toward me-- --
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, about the parking, excuse me.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is that a part of the basement area of the police department?
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir; it is.
    Mr. RANKIN. All right; proceed.
    Mr. REVILL And Mr. Hosty ran over to me and he says, "Jack"-now as I recall these words-"a Communist killed President Kennedy."
    I said, "What?"
    He said, "Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy."
    I said, "Who is Lee Oswald?"
    He said, "He is in our Communist file. We knew he was here in Dallas." At that time Hosty and I started walking off, and Brian, as well as I recall, sort of stayed back, and as we got onto the elevator or just prior to getting on the elevator Mr. Hosty related that they had information that this man was capable of this, and at this I blew up at him, and I said, "Jim"----
    Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in regard to his being capable?

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    Mr. REVILL. This was it. They had--"We had information that this man was capable"----
    Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
    Mr. REVILL. Of committing this assassination. This is what I understood him to say.
    Mr. RANKIN. Are those his exact words?
    Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall. Give him the benefit of the doubt; I might have misunderstood him. But I don't believe I did, because the part about him being in Dallas, and the fact that he was a suspected Communist, I understand by the rules of the Attorney General they cannot tell us this, but the information about him being capable, I felt that we had taken a part in the security measures for Mr. Kennedy, and if such, if such information was available to another law enforcement agency, I felt they should have made it known to all of us, and I asked Hosty where he was going at that time. By this time we were on the elevator and he said he was going up to homicide and robbery to tell Captain Fritz the same thing. I said, "Do you know Captain Fritz?" and he said he had never met him. I said, "All right, I will take you up and introduce you to Captain Fritz." So Detective Brian and I and Hosty went to the third floor of the city hall and went to Captain Fritz' office, the homicide and robbery bureau. We didn't see Captain Fritz, he may or may not have been there. His office door was closed.
    Mr. DULLES. What time of the day, could you give me the approximate time?
    Mr. REVILL. Between 2:30 and 3 o'clock, and I have the reason for saying this because of the typing of this report here. Our secretary got off at 4 o'clock.
    Mr. DULLES. And Chief Curry had not yet returned, had he?
    Mr. REVILL. I don't know where he was.
    Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about that?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about this to Captain Fritz?
    Mr. REVILL. I did not talk to Captain Fritz, as I said, I didn't see him. I introduced Mr. Hosty to Lieutenant Ted Wells, who is one of the lieutenants assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau and also present at that time was another special agent, Mr. Bookhout, and Hosty, there was confusion within this office, so Brian and I, after introducing Mr. Hosty to Wells, left and went back to the special service bureau office.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say anything to the inspector about it?
    Mr. REVILL. The inspector?
    Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Wells.
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. RANKIN. You didn't tell him this important information?
    Mr. REVILL. Hosty was going up to tell him the same thing.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he told me that.
    Mr. RANKIN. And Hosty told you then that he was going up to tell him that they knew he was capable of being the assassin?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; being at that time I was out of touch with everything, being in the building, I had put no connection between the shooting of Tippit and the President.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Oswald had been arrested?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; at that time I did not.
    Mr. RANKIN. You just knew about the someone by the name of Lee, didn't you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; Lee. And this was told to me by a colored employee of the School Book Depository. Myself and Lieutenant Frank Dyson took charge of the search of the building and we must have had 75 or 80 men in the building assisting in this search. I talked to a Negro----
    Mr. DULLES. Were you in charge of that?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I was in charge of that phase of the search. I talked to a Negro by the name of Givens, and we had handled this person in the past for marijuana violations and I recognized him and in talking to him I asked him if he had been on the sixth floor, and as well as I recall, and Detective Brian was present at this same time he said, yes, that he had observed Mr. Lee, over

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by this window. Well, I asked him who Mr. Lee was, he said, "It is a white boy." He didn't know his full name. So, I turned this Givens individual over to one of our Negro detectives and told him to take him to Captain Fritz for interrogation, and while going to the city hall, or the police station I passed this detective and Givens, and they came into the homicide and robbery bureau shortly after Hosty and I did, so I am sure Captain Fritz did talk to Mr. Givens.
    Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that Oswald had been arrested?
    Mr. REVILL. I really don't know, sir. Because time, we were all shocked that this thing had happened in our city and I personally felt that maybe a sense of responsibility, maybe we could have done more to prevent this thing. I just don't know when I heard that he had been arrested.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you know it by the time you went to Lieutenant Wells' office?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. He may have been in the office at that time.
    Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know that Oswald was already in the police department?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had been in this building since word came of the shots being fired until about 2:30, 2:35, and at that time I decided that my unit could possibly do more at our office where we kept all of our files, cataloging these people, the suspects that were running through my mind at that time. So, I was, I put out a call for all of the intelligence unit personnel to meet me at the office and I got no reply to this because they were all up in the special service bureau. We had been assigned to the Trade Mart, and. two or three of my officers had taken into custody four or five of these picket carriers, and we did this more for protection than anything else because after the word came of the assassination, well, I am afraid they would have been mobbed, and they were all up in the special service bureau booking these prisoners at the time, and I decided we would stop by the special service bureau office, to report back to my captain and see if there was something we could do there. And as I pulled into the basement this conversation took place with Mr. Hosty.
    Mr. RANKIN. And the particular words about Oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by Agent Hosty in the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. He never mentioned this again because I guess I lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information.
    Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything?
    Mr. REVILL. No; Jim Hosty and I are friends, and this has hurt me that I have involved Hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and I worked with him just like he is one of us.
    Mr. RANKIN. You went to the third floor on the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Who else went with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Detective Brian and Hosty, the elevator was--had several people on it. I don't recall who they were.
    Mr. RANKIN. Was Detective Brian on that elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was.
    Mr. RANKIN. At that same time?
    Mr. REVILL. He went to the third floor with me.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you are sure Agent Hosty was on the elevator with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you are sure you were on the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us exactly what you said to Hosty and also what he said to you?
    Mr. REVILL. After hearing about the information that they were purported to have had----
    Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all the information that Hosty told you?
    Mr. REVILL. As well as I recall; yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you say anything to him about it?
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir.

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    Mr. RANKIN. What?
    Mr. REVILL. I asked him why he had not told us this, and the best, my recollection is that he said he couldn't. Now, what he meant by that I don't know. Because in the past our relations had been such that this type of information, it surprised me they had not, if they had such information he had not brought it or hadn't made it available to us.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you are certain you went up there on the elevator together?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; took him to the third floor and introduced him to Lieutenant Wells.
    Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure you didn't go up the stairs together.
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we went to the third floor on the elevator.
    Mr. RANKIN,. You are positive?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; because we caught the elevator in the basement, and there would have been no reason to walk up the stairs.
    Mr. RANKIN. If Agent Hosty said you went up the stairs rapidly together, that would be untrue?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this would be untrue.
    Mr. DULLES. Did you go in that same driveway that the car went in that was to take Oswald out?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. That driveway; and you took that elevator right to the left as you went in there?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we go straight into the doors into the elevator that goes up to the third floor.
    Mr. DULLES. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. Third and fourth floor.
    Representative FORD. May I ask a question to reconstruct this a bit? Both Detective Brian and yourself came in one car?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. And you had two other officers with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. More or less the same time Mr. Hosty came in?
    Mr. REVILL. We followed Mr. Hosty into the basement.
    Mr. DULLES. Each in a car?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was in a car and we were in mine.
    Representative FORD. Your first contact with Mr. Hosty was in the basement there?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. What did he say there?
    Mr. REVILL. He come running up to me, and he said, "Jack, a Communist killed President Kennedy." I said, "What? What are you talking about?'' He said, "Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy," and at that I said, "Who is Lee Harvey Oswald?" And then he told me about him having him in their security files, and then that, "We had information that he was capable of this." By "we" I assumed he meant the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
    Representative FORD. Then Brian, Hosty, and yourself walked to the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. And the three of you took the elevator up to the third floor?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. It is about 10 feet as I remember it.
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it is more than that.
    Mr. DULLES. It is a different elevator. It is not the one that take prisoners down?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it is the swinging doors, you go through the swinging doors.
    Mr. DULLES. It is another elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. At what point in the sequence did you blow up, as you say?
    Mr. REVILL. When he told me about the capability. By blowing up----

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    Representative FORD. Was that standing in the basement near the car or was it over toward the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL We were walking over toward the elevator during this conversation and as far as blowing up, this is semantics. I wanted to know why they had not given us this information.
    Representative FORD. What is his reaction to that?
    Mr. REVILL. "We couldn't." I do not know what he meant by that.
    Representative FORD. When you use words like "We couldn't" that "Oswald was a Communist" this is what I am trying to find out. You mean these are the precise words he said or are these your interpretations of what he said?
    Mr. REVILL The time involved it could be my interpretation, to give him the benefit of the doubt, because as I said Hosty is a friend of mine, and the last thing I wanted to do was to cause this man any trouble, because of our relations in the past.
    Representative FORD. Have you ever had any doubt in the interval between that time and now that what your recollection is is accurate or inaccurate, fair or unfair?
    Mr. REVILL. As far as I am concerned I have; this report is honest, and it was made within an hour after he made the thing. And since this assassination I have gone over in my mind could I have misunderstood him. I sometimes wish or hoped that I have. But this is in essence what he said to me. It might not be exactly the "we's" the "I's" but in essence it is what Mr. Hosty said.
    Representative FORD. At one point as I recall your testimony, you said Hosty said that Oswald was a Communist. A few minutes after that testimony I think you said that Hosty suspected he was a Communist. Now, did you say that deliberately or did you just----
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; if I said that I was wrong.
    Representative FORD. Was that just confusion?
    Mr. REVILL. As I mentioned earlier he come hurrying up to me and he said, "Jack, a Communist killed the President." I said, "What?" He said, "Lee Harvey Oswald, a Communist killed the President," and then he went into the fact that they had known he was there, and then at the conclusion of our, not the conclusion because we continued to discuss this thing going up on the elevator, he made the statement that they had information that he was capable of this. He might have said probably or possibly capable of it, I don't recall, because in Dallas that day, the town died, and I know I was sick that this thing happened in my city, and I felt that maybe we could have done something else to prevent it.
    Mr. DULLES. You stress the word "capable", that sticks in your mind, does it?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. He didn't say might have done it?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; capable.
    Mr. DULLES. Normally would information of this kind have passed to you directly from the FBI or through the Secret Service in the event--of course, there hadn't been other Presidential visits, I guess, so there was no precedent but I was wondering in the case of a Presidential visit would it normally have come to you directly from the Secret Service rather than directly from the FBI?
    Mr. REVILL. Well, in the past Mr. Kennedy had visited Mr. Rayburn there and this information had never been made known to us and usually the information we got from the FBI and you have got to realize the relations are good, was on a personal basis, working with Mr. Hosty and the other agent assigned to their security section and men assigned to their criminal section, it was a share and share alike thing because I have 11 men, and we just augmented their force really with the information we gathered.
    Mr. DULLES. Had you had a meeting with the FBI, a general meeting, to go over security problems prior to this time, prior to the President's visit?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I personally had taken part in no meetings.
    Mr. DULLES. With the FBI?
    Mr. REVILL. With the FBI.
    Mr. DULLES. Or Secret Service?
    Mr. REVILL. Or Secret Service.
    Mr. DULLES. Why was this?
    Mr. REVILL. This I do not know. This was handled at a higher level. It is

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my understanding meetings were held and my captain who is my immediate supervisor was involved in these meetings but---
    Mr. DULLES. You were not present at these meetings but----
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I was not.
    Mr. DULLES. But the meetings you think were held?
    Mr. REVILL This is my understanding; yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Lieutenant Revill, have you seen the original of that Exhibit 709?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is that the report that you referred to when you were answering questions?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I brought a copy.
    Mr. RANKIN. And Congressman Ford?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; there was just one copy made of this and this is the copy I retained. The original went to Chief Curry. And on this, Chief Curry called me and he would like me to swear that this was a true and correct statement, and this I did.
    Mr. RANKIN. By that you are referring to the statement sworn to and subscribed before me this 7th day of April 1964?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you tell us how you happened to make this report, Exhibit 709?
    Mr. REVILL. Why I made the report?
    Mr. RANKIN. How did it happen that you made it?
    Mr. REVILL After Mr. Hosty had related these circumstances to me, and after taking him to the third floor, I reported this incident to my captain, Captain Gannaway.
    Mr. RANKIN. When was this?
    Mr. REVILL Within minutes after I left Mr. Hosty at the homicide and robbery bureau.
    Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him?
    Mr. REVILL. I told him what had happened, what had transpired.
    Mr. RANKIN. Just describe what you said to him.
    Mr. REVILL. About meeting Mr. Hosty in the basement?
    Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us what you said.
    Mr. REVILL. About Mr. Hosty, following Mr. Hosty in the basement, that he came up to me, and stated that a Communist had killed the President, and that a Lee Harvey Oswald, they had him in their security files, and that they knew he was in Dallas, and that he was capable, that they had information he was capable of this. To this----
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about what you have said?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall. I might have.
    Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall that at all?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did your captain ask you whether you said anything about that?
    Mr. REVILL. I don't recall him asking me that; no, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to you about it?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did. He told me to put this on paper.
    Mr. RANKIN. That is all he said?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and to which I told him that I hated to do that because of Mr. Hosty, that he might have been stating a personal opinion. He said, "You put it on paper and give it to me and I will take it to Chief Curry," and this I did.
    Within 30 minutes to an hour after the thing happened.
    Mr. RANKIN. Neither one of you said anything about this being strange that Agent Hosty would say anything like this?
    Mr. REVILL. I do not recall, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything like that?
    Mr. REVILL I don't recall making such a statement.
    Mr. RANKIN. And he didn't say anything like that to you that you recalled?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Representative FORD. Did you write this out in longhand?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and then I dictated it to one of the stenos in the office.

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And she was to, this is what I mentioned earlier the time element, she was to, she got off at 4 o'clock and this was before she went home for the day.
    Mr. DULLES. This is on November 22 you are talking about?
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. Did you sign it on November 22 or at a later date?
    Mr. REVILL. The same time.
    Mr. DULLES. But you swore to it on the 7th day of April 1964?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. You swore that was your signature?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; at the time I was hoping it would never come up.
    Mr. RANKIN. Why?
    Mr. REVILL. Because of the relations that we had with the Bureau.
    Mr. RANKIN. You thought this was a bad thing for the Bureau?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.
    Mr. RANKIN. For them to admit to you that they knew----
    Mr. REVILL. Not the admitting but to withhold it.
    Mr. RANKIN. To withhold the information?
    Mr. REVILL Yes.
    Mr. RANKIN. They thought this man was capable of being an assassin?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. And yet you say that Agent Hosty just blurted that out?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he did.
    Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you remember about it?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; all that I remember.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you make this----
    Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question that comes right along with that? Did he say anything to you about his having been in Russia and redefected?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. That did not come up in this conversation?
    Mr.REVILL. No, sir.
    Mr.RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew he was a Communist?
    Mr.REVILL. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. DULLES. Why not?
    Mr.REVILL. I don't know.
    Representative FORD. In the statement that you gave on November 22 which you have signed, you say?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. "The subject was arrested for the murder of J.D. Tippit and is a prime suspect in the assassination of President Kennedy."
    Mr. REVILL. This I found out after reporting to my office, I didn't know what time this happened.
    Representative FORD. In other words, you learned this subsequent to going with Hosty?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. And then coming back to your own office?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; some of the officers assigned to the Special Service Bureau on--were involved in the arrest, Detectives Carroll and I talked to Agent Bob Barrett, I ran into him in the hall and he had told me about the arrest of Oswald. I think he was present at the time.
    Representative FORD. That is how you learned about this?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. At what time of day did you make this actual statement and sign it approximately?
    Mr. REVILL. Approximately 3:30, 3:35.
    Mr. DuLLES. 3:35 on the 22d of November?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. This is the actual statement that you then signed and then you swore to it, and the notary's signature was put on on the 22d of April?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; the notary's was on April 7, I believe.
    Mr. DULLES. 7th day of April, I mean, 7th day of April.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; but this is the report that I signed on the 22d.
    Mr. DULLES. This is the actual report that you signed on the 22d?

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    Mr. REVILL. On the 22d. This is a copy, I believe.
    Mr. DULLES. Yes; this is a copy I have in my hand.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. The original of this was made on November 22?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. And signed on November 22d?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it was.
    Mr. DULLES. And later sworn to on April 7?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct.
    Mr. DULLES. April 7, 1964.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is all the information on 709 given by you?
    Mr. REVILL Is this 709?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. All of the information, what do you mean by this, sir?
    Mr. RANKIN. All of the language and everything on that exhibit, did you give that to some stenographer to write?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out. My stenographer, she is a clerk typist, and--I roughed it out and then she typed it for me.
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, the words "subject" Lee Harvey Oswald.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Was that given by you on the slip of paper you wrote out?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I wrote it out in longhand.
    Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.
    Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you?
    Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there.
    Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information?
    Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out.
    Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him.
    Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you?
    Mr. REVILL. The 605?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. I don't know.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is.
    Mr. DULLES. As of the time.
    Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.
    Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?
    Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
    Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.
    Mr. REVILL. Is this a-is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time?
    Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. I think you will also find that 602 Elsbeth Street is where he lived at one time.
    Mr. REVILL. Now, where they got this address----
    Mr. RANKIN. You never checked that?
    Mr. REVILL. I personally have not checked it but I am sure it has been checked.
    Mr. RANKIN. I see.
    Mr. REVILL. But this is the address I was given.
    Mr. RANKIN. Now, you say here that you were told that the subject was a member of the Communist Party. Is that right?
    Mr. REVILL. This might be my interpretation of Mr. Hosty saying a Communist killed the President and we had him in our security files.
    Mr. RANKIN. You are an expert in this field, aren't you? You are working in the subversive field?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; but as far as an expert, I wouldn't say I am an expert.

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    Mr. RANKIN. You know the difference between membership and a person being a Communist, don't you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you know it is a very real difference?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; there is a difference.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know which Mr. Hosty told you?
    Mr. REVILL. He did not say that he was a member. This was my connotation of what he said that a Communist, that "We had him in our security files."
    Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor.
    Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates?
    Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit.
    Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address.
    Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can.
    Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.
    Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----
    Mr. RANKIN. You didn't put down on this statement anything about what you said, did you?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you?
    Mr. REVILL. All I was doing was reporting what Mr. Hosty said to me.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is that the way you make all your reports just one side?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. You never say what you said?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not put our opinions or our interpretation in the report.
    Mr. RANKIN. You don't even say what you asked?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. You just put the answer down?
    Mr. REVILL. Put what was given to me; yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. And that is the way all the police department reports are made?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I don't know whether this is the way they are all made. This is the way we do it in our unit.
    Mr. RANKIN. After you made this report, do you know what happened to it?
    Mr. REVILL. I gave it to the captain, my captain, Captain Gannaway.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it was given to the Commission when the police reports were furnished to the Commission?
    Mr. REVILL. This I do not know, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. I will tell you that it was not given to the Commission. Do you know any reason why it was withheld?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why it should have been withheld until Chief Curry came here?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with that being withheld?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I gave it to my superior, and what he did with it, I do not know.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any discussions about withholding it?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. You did want to protect Agent Hosty, you say?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. And you hoped the information would not get out?
    Mr. REVILL. By hoping----

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    The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say exactly that, Mr. Rankin. He said he hoped he wouldn't have to use it against Hosty as I understood him to say.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; my opinion, and this was my personal opinion that it would not serve any purpose. In your scope of the investigation, yes, I can see where it would, but I hated to get involved in a controversy with the FBI, because of our past relations.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you recently have a conversation with Lieutenant Hopkins of Fort Worth?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Where was that?
    mr. REVILL. Lieutenant Hopkins and I went to Sacramento, Calif., to a law enforcement intelligence unit conference and shared a room.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this matter with him?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it broke in the papers while we were there.
    Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about it?
    Mr. REVILL. About the report? About this report?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. I told him about the conversation with Mr. Hosty and about according to the news release, the news stories, this thing was released, and the newspaper reporters and television people in Sacramento made it impossible for me to remain at the conference so I returned to Dallas. I was there for 1 day and returned the next, the next evening.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about the report being inaccurate?
    Mr. REVILL. Inaccurate?
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL No, sir.
    representative FORD. What was the date of this conference in Sacramento?
    Mr. REVILL. April 22, 23, and 24, I believe. It was on a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. It could have been the 23d, 24th, and 25th but I returned on Friday evening.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you examine the newspaper report of your report, Exhibit 709?
    Mr. REVILL Did I examine it? Yes, sir; I read several newspaper reports of it.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the reports to the newspapers?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with giving it to the newspapers?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this would have been the last thing I would have done.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I do not.
    Representative FORD. What prompted you to discuss this information with the other officer from Fort Worth?
    Mr. REVILL. I started getting long-distance telephone calls on the evening, it must have been the 23d, it was Thursday night, I got two long-distance phone calls, and Lieutenant Hopkins and I were sharing a double room and, of course----
    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant who?
    Mr. REVILL. Lieutenant Hopkins of the Fort Worth Police Department. H.F. Hopkins.
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. And I discussed it with him.
    Representative FORD. Who was calling you long distance, what relevance does that have to it?
    Mr. REVILL. To my discussing it with him?
    Representative FORD Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. The long-distance phone calls were about this report, the Associated Press and the United Press.
    Representative FORD. I see. They had heard about it, they called you long distance and you discussed it with Hopkins who was in the room with you?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. That is all that I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

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    The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, or you?
    Mr. DULLES. Tippit was not under your jurisdiction, was he?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; he was not.
    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, I am not familiar with the newspaper report that you are speaking of. What, in substance, did it say?
    Mr. REVILL. There were several articles written. The Dallas papers carried articles on it and the Sacramento, Calif., paper carried an article on it. In essence it had to do with this conversation that Hosty and I had and about this report and somewhere, someplace some newspaper reporter must have seen a copy of this because he knew how many paragraphs they had in it and he quoted, I believe, the last paragraph of the report verbatim, and this is what concerned me, that a report such as this would fall into their hands.
    Now, who the reporter is, there were several reporters that were curious about the thing, and I don't even recall which newspaper carried the verbatim paragraph about Agent Hosty's conversation.
    The CHAIRMAN. And that is what caused you and Lieutenant Hopkins to have a discussion?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. Did he bring the matter up to you or did you bring it up to him?
    Mr. REVILL. I might have brought it up to him because I was concerned that this thing had been released.
    The CHAIRMAN. What was your conversation concerning that?
    Mr. REVILL. That I had received these calls, the first one must have been around 2 o'clock in the morning, California time, from the Associated Press. It was a lady writer, and she asked about this and I told her that any statement would have to be made by Chief Curry, and she trapped me really. She made a false statement that Hosty was supposed to have said something else and I said no, that is not so. He did not make a statement, and then there was my comment. From that it looked like I had written them out a press release.
    The CHAIRMAN. Looks like what?
    Mr. REVILL. It appears as if I had written out a press release from the comment in the newspapers but that was the only statement I made that Hosty had not made such statement, it was a fabrication, he knew he was capable, but he did not make such a statement. Hosty did not make such a statement.
    The CHAIRMAN. Then you discussed that with Mr. Hopkins?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall just what Mr. Hopkins asked you and what you told him about this report?
    Mr. REVILL. Well, when I received the first call, I was in the coffee shop, it was 2 o'clock in the morning, we had been out with two of the Sacramento County Sheriff's officers and I got the call and after getting the call I went to the room and Hopkins had been awakened by this phone call, and I told him about the call, and then from there on, I had numerous long-distance calls, and I answered the one with the UPI, and then I decided I would not talk to people. Because I couldn't see where it would help anything.
    The CHAIRMAN. Did he ask you if the substance of this report was true, I am speaking now of Exhibit 709, the one we have been talking about.
    Mr. REVILL. Mr. Hopkins had never seen this report. I just told him what had transpired between Hosty and I and told him that a report had been made, and this is what they were calling on.
    The CHAIRMAN. Did you at any time in talking to him repudiate anything that was in this report?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir. The only thing I repudiated was the fact that this reporter had said that Hosty had made a statement and I said no, this is not true, about them not believing that he would do it, and I think I told Hopkins that.
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Anything more?
    Mr. DULLES. I have nothing more.
    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, thank you very much, sir, for your help here.
    Mr. REVILL. Thank you, sir. I am just sorry it happened.

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    The CHAIRMAN. You have told us what the truth of the situation is, you could do no more and no less.
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir.
    (Discussion off the record.)
    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, just a question or two, we forgot to ask, Mr. Rankin, would you ask them, please?
    Mr. RANKIN. You said you made some handwritten notes about this 709 exhibit.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. When you gave them to the typist--do you know what happened to those notes?
    Mr. REVILL They were destroyed, I am sure.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what her name is who typed 709?
    Mr. REVILL. Mary Jane Robertson.
    Mr. RANKIN. Is she still with the police department?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. What position is she in now?
    Mr. REVILL. She is a clerk-typist in the special service bureau.
    Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where the original of 709 is?
    Mr. REVILL. With Chief Curry, I assume. Well, let's see. You have a copy; I would assume he has got it.
    Mr. DULLES. Wasn't a copy made at the time?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I have it.
    Mr. DULLES. The actual copy, you have?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it is in my little briefcase.
    Mr. RANKIN. So that original would be available to us?
    I Mr. DULLES. You have it here now?
    Mr. REVILL. I have a copy.
    Mr. DULLES. A carbon copy?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. He showed us a copy of his testimony.
    Representative FORD. Do you know how many copies were made?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; one and one; an original and one.
    Representative FORD. And you kept one copy and one went to Captain Gannaway?
    Mr. REVILL. No; both copies went to Captain Gannaway who is my immediate superior and he later gave me back the carbon and the original went to Chief Curry.
    Representative FORD. And you have had the one copy in your possession since how long?
    Mr. REVILL. Probably a week or two after this thing happened, and I have had it in the Lee Harvey Oswald file.
    Representative FORD. You have had this copy in your files in the police department?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. Since about December 1 or thereabouts?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; thereabouts.
    The CHAIRMAN. Do you number those items in the file?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. And the order in which they come in?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir. Now, this particular report was put in the Lee Harvey Oswald file, and he was given an intelligence number, A & T, if I may get this copy I will explain to you----
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes; would you do so, please?
    Mr. REVILL. Excuse me just a moment. You see, he was given A & T 2965, page 34, as it appears in his file. This is indexed with a card with this file number and page number.
    The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, would the next item in that file be numbered 35?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it would.
    The CHAIRMAN. And the one directly preceding it would be 33?
    Mr. REVILL Thirty-three; yes, sir.

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    The CHAIRMAN. I see, and you have the rest of your file which would indicate that?
    Mr. REVILL Yes, sir; I don't have it with me.
    The CHAIRMAN. No; but you have it in your records.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    The CHAIRMAN. And that could be produced if we wanted it?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; it is the complete file we have now on Lee Harvey Oswald.
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
    Mr. RANKIN. May we have----
    Mr. DULLES. Could I just see that?
    Mr. RANKIN. Could we make a copy of that?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I put another piece in there because it is on onion skin.
    Mr. RANKIN. We could make a photostatic copy quickly and return this to you.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to number this in the next order of exhibits and offer it in evidence, if I may, this copy, the photostatic copy.
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. Just as a security matter, would you kindly look in the file and see if by any chance your original longhand notes could have been put in the file, at this place in the file?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can, but I am sure they were not because this was not made at my office. You see, we are removed physically from the police department, the intelligence unit, and this was made at the special service bureau office.
    Mr. DULLES I see, not in your own office.
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; we are an integral part of the special service bureau office but our files are maintained elsewhere, and this was made at the special service bureau office.
    Representative FORD. When you sat down to write out this statement, just describe where you did it and how you did it, what kind of paper you used and so forth.
    Mr. REVILL. Well, we use the white pads like this, and I wrote it out on the pad, and in the special service bureau office and it was made in Lieutenant Dyson's office, he was out, and I used his desk, and then I took it to Mrs. Robertson, and she typed it.
    Representative FORD. Did you consult with Detective Brian?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Representative FORD. During the time you were preparing it?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir.
    Representative FORD. Or subsequent to its preparation?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. At the time I couldn't have told you who was with me or who overheard this thing because there was so much confusion in the elevator and going to the elevator.
    Representative FORD. But Brian was with you on the elevator?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he was with me in the automobile and on the elevator.
    Representative FORD. Was he up in Gannaway's office with you, too?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; he works for me.
    Representative FORD. He was with you at the time you went to Gannaway's office?
    Mr. REVILL. The special service bureau office; yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. But he didn't see this at anytime?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I say he didn't, I don't know whether he ever saw it or not. He might have seen it when I was working on it and I gave both of the copies to the captain.
    The CHAIRMAN. Lieutenant, did that entire Oswald file that you have just told us about come to the Commission, do you know?
    Mr. REVILL. I don't know. Now what we did, we made up several large books, and it is my understanding that a copy of one of these was given to the Attorney General Waggoner and he was in turn to furnish it to this Commission, this I was told by Captain Gannaway.
    Mr. RANKIN. When was that?
    Mr. REVILL. This was a month or two ago.
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but not when you first gave the files.

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    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; because this happened on the same day.
    The CHAIRMAN. Should that file have included this?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; it didn't. There were only two pieces made of it, one copy and the original made of this.
    The CHAIRMAN. I see. What I am getting at, when the department sent their reports to us, did they send copies of this file that Exhibit 709 is in?
    Mr. REVILL. The Lee Harvey Oswald file?
    The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
    Mr. REVILL. I don't believe they did, because much of this is, pertains to newspaper articles, and information that we picked up such as leads where Ruby and Oswald were seen together, we ran all these things down, and then we would make a report of the lead, or the findings, and a copy of it would go in their files.
    The CHAIRMAN. I see.
    Mr. REVILL. But this one here, was not placed in that book?
    Mr. DULLES. In the original of Commission Exhibit No. 709 that you have just given us prior to the notary public's inscription, subscription to it, there is red ink underlining of Lee Harvey Oswald and James Hosty. When was that put on this copy?
    Mr. REVILL. I don't know, sir. Captain Gannaway must have done that because he had the thing and then later gave it to me. Now, the reason for it being underlined, I don't know. On the original--yes; I do.
    Mr. DULLES. Would that be for filing purposes?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I do. Normally we retain the original copy of every report for our file copy, but I did not have the file copy or the original report so our clerk in indexing this underscored the name and the address and she made cards for the index files.
    Mr. DULLES. That was a card, also, under the file of James Hosty?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. His name is also underlined in red?
    Mr. REVILL. His name indexed; yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. In your original copy of Exhibit 709?
    Mr. REVILL. No, sir; not the original copy, because the original.
    Mr. DULLES. The carbon copy, excuse me, the carbon copy of 709.
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. And I assume that Commission's Exhibit No. 709 which is a photostat is a photostat of the original rather than of the carbon copy?
    Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; and I don't know who made the photostat, I did not. I assume Chief Curry had it made.
    Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, we are giving the number 838 to the carbon copy of Exhibit 709 that Lieutenant Revill has just produced.
    The CHAIRMAN. You propose to take a photostat of this and return this report to the lieutenant?
    Mr. RANKIN. If we may, Mr. Chief Justice, this is the only copy that I have.
    The CHAIRMAN. You should have it back.
    Mr. REVILL That is fine.
    The CHAIRMAN. We will take a photostat and return this to you then.
    Mr. REVILL. I appreciate that.
    The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted in that manner.
    (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 838 for identification, and received in evidence.)
    The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.
    Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service.
    Mr. RANKIN. Yes; that will be fine.
    The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.