TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL beginning at 12H73...
The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling]
R-e-v-i-l-l-e.
Lieutenant REVILL. No. No "e."
Mr. HUBERT. No, "e"? But two "l's."
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive
Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint resolution of Congress No. 137, in the
rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and
joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to
you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and
report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Lieutenant Revill,
the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of
Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of a
general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the
Commission. And under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written
notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness
may waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to do so ? Do you wish to waive the
3-day----
Lieutenant REVILL. I will waive it, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's swear you. If you will stand and
raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Lieutenant REVILL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please.
Lieutenant REVILL. My name is Jack Revill.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Lieutenant REVILL. My age is 34 years of age.
Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?
Lieutenant REVILL. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Lieutenant REVILL. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department,
lieutenant of the police.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed ?
Lieutenant REVILL. I have been employed by this police department for a
period of 13 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you start?
Lieutenant REVILL. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there
I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive your present rank ?
Lieutenant REVILL. June 26, 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or
assignments within the department?
Lieutenant REVILL. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of
criminal intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that section?
Lieutenant REVILL. Since February of 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior there?
Lieutenant REVILL. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway.
Mr. HUBERT. And then over him?
Lieutenant REVILL. Chief Curry.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or
supervisor?
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Lieutenant REVILL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go
through Stevenson or Batchelor?
Lieutenant REVILL. Just directly to the Chief.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to state briefly, so that we get the
full story, just what function you have had with respect to the investigation of the
shooting of Oswald. First let me ask you: Were you present when Oswald was shot?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty that day?
Lieutenant REVILL No, sir; later I was, but not the morning of the
shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Not at the time of the shooting?
Lieutenant REVILL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did
with reference to the investigation of this.
Lieutenant REVILL. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was
assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack Ruby gained access to
the basement of the city hall. This committee was comprised of myself, Lt. F. I. Cornwall,
Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones and Inspector Sawyer, and I do
not recall his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in the
basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that might be developed from
these interviews We were to follow up on these.
Mr. HUBERT. When did the official committee you have just mentioned
come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your orders?
Lieutenant REVILL. This committee was formed--created at the orders of
Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go ahead.
Lieutenant REVILL. As previously stated, our function was to interview
these people.
Mr. HUBERT. Had any other interviews of these people been made prior to
the commencement of the functions of your committee?
Lieutenant REVILL. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had
submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of November 24, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was done ?
Lieutenant REVILL. I presume that it was done on the date of the
shooting and immediately thereafter.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual
reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less followed a form in the
sense that they were submitted a list of questions, at least they had to answer that much,
and they could, perhaps, go further if they wanted to?
Lieutenant REVILL. I believe the form letter you make reference to was
given to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I devoted my efforts
toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall and I, our duty was to interview these
reserve policemen.
Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn
officers.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, where is Cornwall now ?
Lieutenant REVILL He is in Louisville, Ky, at the Southern Police
Institute. He left a week ago.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understand that he is going to be there----
Lieutenant REVILL. 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. 3 months?
Lieutenant REVILL. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together
throughout the existence of this committee.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the document entitled,
"Investigation of the Operation and Security Involved on the Transfer of Lee Harvey
Oswald, on November 24, 1963," which I now show you ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am.
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Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a
document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you familiar with the
letter of transmittal of this report dated December 16th, 1963, which is at the first part
of the report, and runs for 11 pages, signed by Sawyer, Westbrook, and Jones?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. HUBERT. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph,
says that you have read it and concur?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of
Mayo?
Lieutenant REVILL. Mayo?
Mr. HUBERT. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in--he is an
accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here.
Lieutenant REVILL. This is R. L. Mayo?
Mr. HUBERT. It could be R. L. Mayo.
Lieutenant REVILL. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of
a reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant Cornwall.
Mr. HUBERT. Lamar W.?
Lieutenant REVILL. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we
made an error on this up here, the girl----
Mr. HUBERT. It is L. W. Mayo, I think.
Lieutenant REVILL. It will be the same. I was looking at his report,
and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment and what happened
here, they----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are talking about----
Lieutenant REVILL. In the report It is page 70.
Mr. HUBERT. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A.
Lieutenant REVILL. What happened, the secretary in typing the report
put the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. Mayo.
Mr. HUBERT. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter
which starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, 826," that
being a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the next document also numbered
page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, shows that the initial report dated November 26,
addressed to Chief Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and it is your thought--that
it is an error in the first document which is entitled, "Interview of Reserve
Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo." and it should have been, "L. W. Mayo. ?"
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion that that is the same person?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is my opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed by
you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was either a minister or
posing to be a minister in any case, who was trying to get into the jail through the
Commerce Street entrance on November 24, prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to
see Oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your inquiry, and
all I want to do is ask you what--if it is true, and just what comment do you have to make
on it?
Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall making that, because it would have
been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference to an individual who
was on the street trying to get in who was wearing a Whitehouse--a streamer with the
words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to me, was pertinent, and this minister--of
course, the minister wanted to see Oswald prior to the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not
recollect that Mayo made such a statement to you?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he might have made such a statement,
but----
Mr. HUBERT. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; because to me it would have been
pertinent. Anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his statement to you, Mayo to you, that after
the
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shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that there was a man who came to
Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's roommate, and was trying to get in to see
Ruby, that being after the shooting. Do you recall that Mayo reported that during the
course of the interview ?
Lieutenant REVILL. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like
that, and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the Special Service
Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it here and I don't know why we omitted
that, but I think we--I do recall him making such a statement. George Senator, I believe
he would have been the individual.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think
he said.
Lieutenant REVILL. This, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part
of the interview?
Lieutenant REVILL. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been
listed here.
Mr. HUBERT. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you,
which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman who had been
hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after the shooting. Apparently they
were tourists from Springfield, Ill., and they wanted to take some pictures and stated
that to you that----
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not state this to me.
Mr. HUBERT. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was
stated to you?
Lieutenant REVILL. I would say that he did not relate this to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one
regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, but you do not
remember ?
Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report?
Lieutenant REVILL. This might have happened. It was subsequent to this
I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief Batchelor's office,
and----
Mr. HUBERT. When subsequent to what?
Lieutennat REVILL. Subsequent to the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.
Lieutenant REVILL. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently--he was
probably talking to--let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9:30. This preacher's name is
Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist, Radio Evangelist.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was reported and the man was interviewed?
Lieutenant REVILL. It was not reported because I myself found this man.
Mr. HUBERT. But----
Lieutenant REVILL There is no report on it, because it is in--it had
nothing to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's office, and Decker
referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had not been transferred, so, he came to the
city hall and went to the third floor, and--by the way, he rode up on the elevator with
Jack Ruby, now----
Mr. HUBERT. This Rushing?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Rode to the third floor
Lieutenant REVILL. Now, he says this.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, he says this.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to
the district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down leads and
interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the people that we located, and he
related this story to me, that he rode up on the elevator with Jack Ruby on the morning of
November 24. Mr. Wade did not use this man. He didn't need the testimony, because he had
placed Ruby there the morning of the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on
the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting?
Lieutenant. REVILL. Yes, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Lieutenant REVILL. Ray Rushing.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how we could reach him?
Lieutenant REVILL. No; he lives in Richardson, Tex.--correction,
please--Plano, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Lieutenant REVILL. P-l-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he
does not have a phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a report on the interview with him ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted
by the----at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant District Attorney
Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Rushing say what time that was?
Lieutenant REVILL. 9:30. He was sure of the time, because he had let
his wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled directly to the city
hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say?
Lieutenant REVILL. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article
that appeared that day, and later days.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him ?
Lieutenant REVILL. He talked about the weather. I asked him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he was--whether he saw Ruby there
afterwards ?
Lieutenant REVILL He said he turned to the right and went up to the
third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to the right and went to the
administrative office and talked to Chief Assistant Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you
turned over the information concerning your interview to Assistant District Attorney
Alexander ?
Lieutenant REVILL. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night
and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and relate this to Mr.
Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might use him as a witness, and Alexander was
of the opinion that the man might be mistaken. That he saw this as a means of getting
publicity. Of course, I disagree with that thinking. I think that the man is truthful in
that he is reporting what he thinks he saw.
Mr. HUBERT. When you interviewed him did he give you what you
considered a fairly accurate description of Ruby?
Lieutenant REVILL Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in
the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to----
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you interview him?
Lieutenant REVILL. At the district attorney's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you a specific address in Plano ?
Lieutenant REVILL. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I
can't----
Mr. HUBERT. What is he? A Baptist minister?
Lieutenant REVILL. He is, yes; I guess he would be. He attends the
First Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist--that his calling is to dry up the
liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance
at that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald ?
Lieutenant REVILL. He did not get to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how he got into this building?
Lieutenant REVILL. He walked into the building.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any difficulty getting in ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Not at that time, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether he was stopped and asked for
identification by anyone?
Lieutenant REVILL No, sir; I don't believe he was. At that time, of
course,
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I don't know for sure--I don't know that they were--had the building secured.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit,
about Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that he said that, but
you don't know why it was left out of the----
Lieutenant REVILL. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall
him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore,
who was assigned to the special service section.
Mr. HUBERT. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, Ill.,
you have no recollection of that?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean?
Lieutenant REVILL. Sergeant Dean? No. sir; I did not interview Sergeant
Dean.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Archer?
Lieutenant REVILL No, sir; these interviews were conducted by
Lieutenant McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, he might have been
interviewed by Captain Westbrook.
Mr. HUBERT. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the----
Lieutenant REVILL. Basement. This basement; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came in
the Main Street entrance?
Lieutenant REVILL. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspaper.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it on the 24th ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job----
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were the
people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned to the Trade Mart,
where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of the shooting, three of us, or four of us,
went to the Texas School Book Depository and started a systematical search and there were
many, many officers present at that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin naming all of
the officers that I could recall being there. This was on a Friday. The following
Saturday, the next day, we were to locate witnesses. People who were employed at the
School Book Depository, get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. This took all
day. Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 8 o'clock. The next morning
none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that I mean the intelligence unit. I was at home
and I saw the shooting on television and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor
Cabell's home, because there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with Mr.
Cabell that night and got back the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got
into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement?
Lieutenant REVILL I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far as
a formal interview; no.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any
particular individual, but from the newspaper?
Lieutenant REVILL. Newspaper.
Mr. HUBERT. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he
stated to you how he found out about Ruby's alleged entry through the Main Street ramp ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly?
Lieutenant REVEL. Holly? Yes, sir; I talked to Mr. Holly.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the conversation?
Lieutenant REVILL Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about it, please?
Lieutenant REVILL. If I may find the report.
Mr. HUBERT. There is an index there.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I
can find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes, Holly was interviewed and he stated that
he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after the shooting occurred he was reassigned
to Parkland Hospital, and that while there some
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unknown police reservist told him that he had observed, or admitted Ruby into the basement
of the city hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials.
Mr. HUBERT. Well.----
Lieutenant REVILL. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of the
police reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this officer, or reserve
officer.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly
shown these pictures?
Lieutenant REVILL. In the city hall, in the special services bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was
interviewed by Captain Solomon?
Lieutenant REVILL. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and
both Lieutenant Cornwall and I.
Mr. HUBERT. All at once?
Lieutenant REVILL. No; see what happened, Holly came to us with his
story. Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, so I called Captain
Solomon, who has access to all of the records and photographs of the reserve officers, and
he brought them to the special services bureau in the city hall. Holly was unable to
identify this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a reserve captain, and both
Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly might be fabricating this thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Now; what did Holly say ----
Lieutenant REVILL. Holly----
Mr. HUBERT. That this reserve officer told him?
Lieutenant REVILL That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city
hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the basement of the city
hall. We were never able to locate this reserve officer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the
same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming down the ramp, Main
Street ramp, and just about a minute before the shooting?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; Holly did not say that to me. I found a
reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who saw some individual
coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp.
He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said,
approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting--I mean, prior to the
shooting. Have you got a----
Mr. HUBERT. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you,
tell me if you don't recognize the name, Officer Newman?
Lieutenant REVILL. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You--he
was assigned----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Newman?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the
ramp, and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not identify him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a
matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, a man coming down
the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and another person who jumped the rail down
there from the parking area into the ramp on the Main Street side, but that he could not
identify either ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know
whether it was before the shooting or after.
Lieutenant REVILL. The man that he is making reference to jumping over
the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t?
Lieutenant REVILL. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he, Newman, identify him as such?
Lieutenant REVILL. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he
identify the man running down the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man
running
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down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell you later he identified that
man as being Ruby by comparing him to the pictures?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer
who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain Solomon present?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; Solomon was present and had brought these
photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify any of these people.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't pick out any picture at all?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had
another interview with this man ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a
picture in an interview with Solomon. and state that he thought that was the reserve
officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't happen when you were present?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my
presence. I do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific officer was the
individual that--we interviewed this officer and he was not the one, and I couldn't tell
you his name, because we talked to so many of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the
individual, and he picked out then a particular picture?
Lieutenant REVILL As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it
turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the basement of the city
hall. He had been fishing, was on a fishing trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I
couldn't tell you his name. There were two of them that came from Arlington directly to
the hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Newman is a reserve officer?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the man
who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or something like that sort
was not Newman?
Lieutenant REVILL Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That reserve officer was interviewed?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in
here, if I could find it.
Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't
even in the place at all ?
Lieutenant REVILL. He had been fishing.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out
Newman's picture?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not pick out Newman's picture.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in your----
Lieutenant REVILL. In my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture
when you were not there?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not heard this.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; on two occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the first one ?
Lieutenant REVILL. The first occasion, the date would have been on the
Sunday following the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. When? One week later?
Lieutenant REVILL. One week later, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I can show you a calendar of----
Lieutenant REVILL. I can give you the date.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. Would you do so?
Lieutenant REVILL. Would have been on December the 1st in the county
jail. Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, whose name I do not
recall. This man was present at both interviews, at Mr. Decker's request.
Mr. HUBERT. The jailer was?
Lieutenant REVILL. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview
took place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe it would be the
chief jailer's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what happened?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after
interviewing all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into the basement, decided
that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, so, we finally got clearance to go talk
to him and we did. and----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that
he had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp?
Lieutenant REVILL. Something to the effect that, "You may not
believe me, but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was there with
Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused to disclose how he gained access
into the basement stating that this is a part of his defense, so, we then had Sheriff
Decker call Tom Howard, who was representing Ruby at that time as a legal counsel. Mr.
Howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. Ruby was very precise as
to his activities on Friday, the date of the shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to
discuss with us any of his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of
the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any reason ?
Lieutenant REVILL. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The
interview approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the
press, that he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct or not correct?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him this, and he refused to
discuss it. He said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you pursue that?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find
out what happened, and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, because if someone
was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I asked him about officers by name who
were present in the basement, if they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't
discuss it. Knowing Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere
for a period of time without talking to someone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; the officer----
Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street exit?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him about
Detective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at Harrison's shoulder.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that?
Lieutenant REVILL. He became very upset.
Mr. HUBERT. Did--describe how he was upset?
Lieutenant REVILL. This is when he said--well, he got real angry at me
and cussed me and told me----
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did?
Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, yes; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to
get the man's job.
Mr. HUBERT. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is
Harrison's job?
Lieutenant REVILL. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later
got it approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had seen Ruby prior to
the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the polygraph examination showed that
Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby being present.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Harrison, too?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. Showed him the film.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is
telling the truth?
Lieutenant REVILL. If you believe a polygraph examination; he is.
Mr. HUBERT. I was interested in your impression.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then I'd
rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any
other names to Ruby ? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and----
Lieutenant REVILL. I mentioned the officers who were in the positions
to have seen Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police
officer? Lieutenant REVILL. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew Daniels.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused
to discuss and at this time he--his lawyer wasn't present?
Lieutenant REVILL. On the second interview, which would have occurred
on December the----
Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more
information concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he cursed
you and told you you were a hatchet man.
Lieutenant REFILL. What upset him----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say any other things?
Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him was that I was involved in this
thing. When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, the Intelligence
people are involved in it now. They think I am a Communist." I don't know what gave
him that idea, but I have known Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been a friend with him.
I knew him enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall took the position of being his
friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our interview. We were unable
to get any information from him.
Mr. HUBERT. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that
set----
Lieutenant REVILL. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied,
personally, with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that kind of answers the other question.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; it does. They were reluctant--I say,
"They," the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted
to a polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of determining if he was
truthful or not.
Mr. HUBERT. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under
one ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On
what date was that?
Lieutenant REVILL. This would have occurred on the 3d of December.
Mr. HUBERT. Tuesday?
Lieutenant REVILL. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3.
What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph machine, and his
lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the first interview as to doing this. He
stated that there were other lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have
their permission before agreeing to let Jack take this examination. On Monday we
communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging with us, and telling us he had not
heard from the other lawyers. By "Tom," I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On
Tuesday, we discussed it again with him and he stated that he was still trying to work
this thing out. So, Cornwall and I again decided--that we would go directly to Jack Ruby.
He was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity to submit to the
examination. If he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want to then it's also fine.
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So, we went to Jack on the 2d--on the 3d of December and gave him the opportunity to take
the polygraph.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you asked him ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Asked him, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his lawyer present then?
Lieutenant REVILL. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard to
the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have Jack submitted.
Mr. HUBERT. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph
machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say?
Lieutenant REVILL. He said--during the second interview he said that
his lawyer would have to----
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then his lawyer came and----
Lieutenant REVILL. They declined.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk about the basement?
Lieutenant REVILL. Tried to.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the result of that?
Lieutenant REVILL. And again, this was part of their defense, and----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any anger at you then ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I think it was a carryover from the first
interview, but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with me, thinking maybe
that he might tell us something, but he never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview ?
Lieutenant REVILL. I possibly did, but at this time he was more
composed, and there was no--I don't recall any outbursts.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in
that nothing----
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. No information was gathered?
Lieutenant REVILL. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his
outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some officer, or had been
seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but I was never able to confirm this.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed
this man, Ray Rushing?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And didn't know anything about it?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how did you find out about it ?
Lieutenant REVILL. He called me.
Mr. HUBERT. Ray Rushing called you ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year
ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got several preachers in
his employment, and it was--involved a theft, and I was able to assist him, and he called
me.
Mr. HUBERT. What date, about?
Lieutenant REVILL. When he called me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Lieutenant REVILL. It was during the trial. During the picking of the
jurors. The specific date, I do not recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a
verbal report to Alexander.
Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed
to the FBI or to any Government agencies ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; it was not.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor is there a written report?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to
take the stand.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor
industry they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they might get of a
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derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize the point that this would not be
derogatory publicity.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat
inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say ?
Lieutenant REVILL. He decided he would testify if his testimony was
needed.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his statement as to his original motivation for
reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby?
Lieutenant REVILL. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to
report this incident.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so
long ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him that myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want
to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to dry up the liquor
industry.
Mr. HUBERT. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had
volunteered?
Lieutenant REVILL. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on
my part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, because Mr. Rushing
is the type that there is a Communist under each tree or each rock.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Rushing?
Lieutenant REVILL. Late forty's, or early fifty's.
Mr. HUBERT. Has he been in the Dallas area long?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he had just recently moved to Dallas from
South Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and the Governor of
South Dakota and other influential people, which may or may not be true.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a
church?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this
deposition, a large folder which you identified as--which is identified from the title
page of the jacket cover "File No. INT--"
Lieutenant REVILL. That's intelligence.
Mr. HUBERT. "Intelligence 25--1 through INT--intelligence
25--subject Jack Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department.
"36398," which is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special services
bureau ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Well, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also advise me that most of this information, or
most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are reports that have been
built up after the shooting?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been
made available to the Secret Service?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they make copies of it? Do you know?
Lieutenant REVILL. They made copies of much of this information.
Mr. HUBERT. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels?
Lieutenant REVILL Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his
agents. If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. If it is necessary
for the record----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was considering making it a part of the record, but
I don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have authority at the
present time to subpena it.
Lieutenant REVILL. I will make you copies of anything you want.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been made
already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be unnecessary.
Lieutenant REVILL. For example, here was toll calls, telephone
long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at 1312 1/2 Commerce. The
Ruby residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and also his
sister's residence, Eva Grant's.
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Mr. HUBERT. As of what date?
Lieutenant REVILL. These go back to September 24, 1963,
through--correction on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see
how much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has?
Lieutenant REVILL. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them
personally.
Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing?
Lieutenant REVILL. Of this particular
Mr. HUBERT. Analyses of phone calls ?
Lieutenant REVILL The phone calls.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this
way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal agencies, the
entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it available for photostating, or if
you could do it----
Lieutenant REVILL. We can do it. Anything we can do.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what we would do is that you could execute an
affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect that the attached
report is true, is a true and correct copy of the originals. I think that is possibly the
best way.
Lieutenant REVILL. Any way that it is the easiest for you.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other things that you would like
to say?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I can't think of a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now
Lieutenant REVILL. Wish there was something I could do to shed some
light on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors
concerning connections between Ruby and Oswald?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and
middle of the road, or whatnot?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; this was our function.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your
attention ?
Lieutenant REVILL. All that came to our attention, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a special report on that checkout?
Lieutenant REVILL. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a
possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted concerning that
specific rumor.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an
individual report made on it, but they are not collected together anyplace ?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no synopsis.
Mr. HUBERT. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation
that you identified earlier?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that
could be made available to us ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I can make them available to you.
Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it if you would, because if you have a
lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job would it be to
photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to the FBI?
Lieutenant REVILL No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or any other Federal agent?
Lieutenant REVILL. Anything that they wanted we gave to them.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I
gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you didn't turn those
over?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As a block?
Lieutenant REVILL. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our
reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, what he
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does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned these over to some Federal
agency.
Mr. HUBERT. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please,
is to find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot of rumors have.
Lieutenant REVILL. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they
have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, but what we would
be interested in is the copy of the reports and investigation of those reports or rumors
that have not been turned over to the FBI. Now, I wonder when you could let me know ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Let you know today.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Lieutenant REVILL. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from
our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and every investigation
that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or connection between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, make photostatic copies and. turn them over
to me.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of it,
if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations concerning a rumor,
conducted by you, or whoever it was.
Lieutenant REVILL Do you want this as to each individual report, or
collectively
Mr. HUBERT. You would have to initial each individual report so that we
would be sure.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That those are the reports that you referred to in this
deposition.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that
over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other words, you would
certify that these reports are the ones that you were talking about during this
deposition, and that to the best of your knowledge, they are correct. In effect, it will
be as though you were here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will
close the record up. The only other way would be to have you come here and identify each
one and I am trying to avoid that----
Lieutenant REVILL. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we
make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I see your point.
Lieutenant REVILL Will each one of these officers need to initial them,
or can I do this?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under
your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of every one of them, but
that it is a report made in the course of police department business and that you and the
police department rely upon those reports.
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any
member of the Commission's staff by--prior to the deposition of this morning, and other
than the interview that you and I had just preceding this interview this morning?
Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning
before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this deposition, covered
all that we talked about in that interview ?
Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any material information that we talked about in
the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition ?
Lieutenant REVILL. I do not know of any.
Mr. HUBERT. That's it.
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