TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY beginning at 12H25...

    The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
    Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas Police Department.
    Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry.
    I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
    In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth.
    Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive the 3-day notice?
    Mr. CURRY. I am.
    Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be sworn ? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. CURRY. I do.
    Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?
    Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry.
    Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir?
    Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age.
    Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
    Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue.
    Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?
    Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex.
    Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief?
    Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department.
    Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position?
    Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960.
    Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department altogether?

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    Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936.
    Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin ?
    Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a traffic officer for several months.
    Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began?
    Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three
    Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief?
    Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry a short time after that, after graduating from high school.
    Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school and joining the police force?
    Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated.
    Mr. HUBERT. Are you married ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am.
    Mr. HUBERT. You have a family?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children?
    Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one son of my own and one daughter of my own.
    Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of Dallas?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old.
    Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at the bottom of the ranks in the police department?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way through, as it were?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Up the line?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the police department has, and through civil service examinations was able to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the highest civil service rank obtainable.
    Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly?
    Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as inspector--I don't recall exactly.
    Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system involve special studies?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school.
    Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions you have attended.
    Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the extent of my training.
    Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir ?
    Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age in the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU in Fort Worth where I continued

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my studies at TCU and flew out of Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training. We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments.
    At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you went back to your duties ?
    Mr. CURRY. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months; I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school. I attended the FBI school then.
    Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1 position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the police training school.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Under the laws of Texas?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue testifying--to tell us the various stages.
    Mr. CURRY. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is actually the second in command of the police department--that was in October of 1953.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a non-civil-service position ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's an appointive job.
    Mr. HUBERT. Who appointed you to that job?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of the city manager.
    Mr. HUBERT. Who was the chief at that time?
    Mr. CURRY. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on
    Mr. CURRY. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police.
    Mr. HUBERT. He resigned voluntarily?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was it because of old age?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were second in command at the time you were appointed chief of police?
    Mr. CURRY. That's true.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you had been actually for some time?
    Mr. CURRY. About 7 years.
    Mr. HUBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you.?
    Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed. He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall--I don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and the chief of police, are non-civil service?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of a reduction?
    Mr. CURRY. In a reduction?
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
    Mr. CURRY. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you were when appointed.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments?
    Mr. CURRY They are under civil service except for the assistant chief and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments.
    Mr. HUBERT. You made those appointments?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is in, charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left them there.
    Mr. HUBERT. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you chose to leave them there?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by virtue of civil service?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume, became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police Department offices?
    Mr. CURRY. So I understand; yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing.
    Mr. CURRY. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, and which is near Stemmons Expressway--it was necessary for us to move to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to have a luncheon.
    I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland Hospital and they were--the President, the Vice President and the Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so.
    At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in Oak

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Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field.
    Mr. HUBERT. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that in any way with the President's assassination?
    Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't at the time.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go on.
    Mr. CURRY. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the Presidential plane.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital to go to Love Field?
    Mr. CURRY. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the time you arrived there?
    Mr. CURRY. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital--30 minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that would have been around a little after 1 :15, I believe.
    Mr. HUBERT. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love Field?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
    Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him ?
    Mr. CURRY. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen him but I didn't recognize him.
    Mr. HUBERT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen him?
    Mr. CURRY. I have seen him in the courtroom.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital?
    Mr. CURRY. If he was, I didn't know it.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's what I'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now know to be Jack Ruby?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper who is called Seth Kantor?
    Mr. CURRY. I believe he used to be in Dallas.
    Mr. HUBERT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington.
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him out there?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't recall who all I saw out there--I saw a number of people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could have seen him out there.
    Mr. HUBERT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that you did not see Kantor with Ruby?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that is to say--the arrival at Love Field
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane.
    I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office, and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office, as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And, I left the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and

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returned to my car and in the meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane. After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the city hall.
    Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and I went to my office and talked with some of my staff--I don't recall who all was in there at the time about what was going on, and I was told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of President Kennedy ?
    Mr. CURRY. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the assassination of the President.
    Mr. HUBERT. That was at that same time?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you got back there?
    Mr. CURRY. After I returned from Love Field.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the interrogation?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind.
    Mr. HUBERT. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was in accordance with the normal procedures of the department ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's correct.
    Mr. HUBERT. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir?
    Mr. CURRY. A number of years--I don't recall exactly when he was appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably 15 years anyway.
    I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was interviewed.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you agree to that?
    Mr. CURRY. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in."
    At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went in--one or two FBI representatives.
    It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any message around that time or a little later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about Oswald's security?
    Mr. CURRY. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and telling me that.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--I think the last statement you made was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in to see Oswald ?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the progress of the investigation.
    Mr. HUBERT. How were you kept informed ?
    Mr. CURRY. Usually through Chief Stevenson.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz' office----

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    Mr. CURRY. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
    Mr. CURRY. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred. Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer. Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who shot Tippit.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw him ?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. When I did see him I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was pretty cool.
    Mr. HUBERT. You didn't question him yourself, did you?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.
    Mr. HUBERT. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit?
    Mr. CURRY. Somewhere around in there I don't know exactly when it was.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
    Mr. CURRY. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz, principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that morning he had carried a package into the Building.
    Mr. HUBERT. This information was being relayed to you ?
    Mr. CURRY. Relayed to me by Fritz--just summing up what they found out about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room and started to approach him or question him and they were told by Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from.
    In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, he immediately went to the location to take over all security and searching there.
    Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the Building.
    As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President, and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was told to me by people of the homicide bureau.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as the assassin of President Kennedy?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. And you were aware of that too--you were still in the Building?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a showup or a lineup--I don't know that that is accurate, but it took place in the assembly room.
    Mr. CURRY. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see Oswald, how does he look, can we see him ?
    At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and Alexander was up there.
    Mr. HUBERT. He is the assistant district attorney ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see him or could we see him?
    Mr. HUBERT. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen ?
    Mr. CURRY. By the newsmen.
    Mr. HUBERT. In the presence of Wade and Alexander ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is the assembly room located on another floor?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor.
    Mr. HUBERT. And the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as I recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. That's the room we are talking about?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze?
    Mr. CURRY. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions.
    Mr. HUBERT. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. But this was not an identification lineup?
    Mr. CURRY. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would bring him through.
    Mr. HUBERT. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to the elevator?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. It's the inside elevator
    Mr. CURRY. The prisoners' elevator.
    Mr. HUBERT. That leads all of the police department down into the basement into the jail?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead.
    Mr. CURRY. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time.
    Mr. HUBERT. Were you present then?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.
    Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't recall--I think Fritz was--I don't know that he was in

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the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity--they were not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few seconds and we removed him.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack Ruby in that room?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't see him, and would not have known him had I seen him.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him?
    Mr. CURRY. I didn't recognize him.
    Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize him?
    Mr. CURRY. No.
    Mr. HUBERT. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know as Jack Ruby with being in that room ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of the President?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with the murder of the President--he was charged in the lobby of the identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston.
    Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved through these crowds of people?
    Mr. CURRY. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives, two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds.
    Mr. HUBERT. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the third floor?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in the assembly room?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; there were several--a good many there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not exposed in any way?
    Mr. CURRY. No; he was not.
    Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police then?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at--what security measures were taken, if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the people in the assembly room?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was screening people who came up on the third floor.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, how would they screen them?
    Mr. CURRY. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they would check them, apparently asking for identification.
    Mr. HUBERT. The elevator would be the only way to get up there?
    Mr. CURRY. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have seen them too.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could also check the staircase?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to those officers ?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking the people who came in.
    Mr. HUBERT. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those officers for the purpose of checking there?
    Mr. CURRY. Usually the captain on duty in that building--that would have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders to get someone else.
    Mr. HUBERT. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you have in the department any standard operative procedures to cover a situation like that?
    Mr. CURRY. Not exactly this type incident.
    Mr. HUBERT. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security check going on ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down ?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they went into the assembly room.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald there?
    Mr. CURRY. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen--and I told the newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room and not approach the prisoner.
    Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that period we are talking about?
    Mr. CURRY. No, not this period--no.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system of checking for identification was being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and staircase?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, various people that would come to the other bureaus.
    Mr. HUBERT. Normally, there would be no police checking those two elevators?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the way?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right--that's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate business there ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think we can just continue on then.
    Mr. CURRY. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my office--I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe, Saturday night.
    Mr. HUBERT. No; that would be Friday night.
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide division section on the murder of the President.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Were the security measures you have described still in force?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed.
    Mr. HUBERT. It was neither more nor less?
    Mr. CURRY. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress of the

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investigation. Late that evening, the different members of the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know, that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the prisoner.
    Mr. HUBERT. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been, what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State prison?
    Mr. CURRY. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the sheriff's office sends up and gets them.
    Mr. HUBERT. And either type is usual?
    Mr. CURRY. Either one is acceptable.
    Mr. HUBERT. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in effect, was his prisoner?
    Mr. CURRY. Not at this time.
    Mr. HUBERT. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were asked, I think, by the newsmen?
    Mr. CURRY. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't know.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on from there.
    Mr. CURRY. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will be back in time to observe anything you care to observe."
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had been made for the transfer?
    Mr. CURRY. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then, you went home?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's pick up with the 24th.
    Mr. CURRY. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him--I told Lieutenant Wiggins, I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back over in this area.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had determined that the way to move him was through the basement area ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes. I believe about this--Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor approached me--I think they had been there earlier, and I told them I thought

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the best thing to do was to set up our security down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the county jail.
    I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down there.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of Oswald?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this basement." It was being taken care of, I could see.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that satisfied you that it was being taken care of ?
    Mr. CURRY. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in the basement and screen everything that came back in.
    Mr. HUBERT. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give any specific instructions?
    Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't.
    Mr. HUBERT. Or does that term have any significance in police work ?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them.
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, within the organization of the police department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to be there?
    Mr. CURRY. Any unauthorized people.
    Mr. HUBERT. Just one more point on that--under the system, who would be considered as unauthorized persons?
    Mr. CURRY. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters or police officers would be allowed in the basement.
    Mr. HUBERT. Only the news media?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Television people would be included, too?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken?
    Mr. CURRY. Not at that time.
    Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's go ahead.
    Mr. CURRY. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no; they were still talking to him," so I left the room.
    Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
    Mr. CURRY. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought to----
    Mr. HUBERT. What arrangements had been made?
    Mr. CURRY. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time, I believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and drive him down there. Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11 o'clock--probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him."
    Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the ones that were

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investigating the case and we had the officers set up downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker--I said, "Okay, we'll bring him to you."
    Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at first your security precaution in the basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to move him from the jail or Decker coming after him?
    Mr. CURRY. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats that we had had.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the threats and after you had talked to Decker?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little after 11 o'clock?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, it was probably before that.
    Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems to me it must have been earlier than that.
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car.
    So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever one we wanted.
    Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned out of any unauthorized persons.
    Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit?
    Mr. CURRY. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic comes in on Main Street.
    Mr. HUBERT. Main Street is two-way traffic?
    Mr. CURRY. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the vehicles were placed there.
    Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street and go down?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer route instead of the shorter route was taken?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set up that way.
    Mr. HUBERT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down to the county jail?
    Mr. CURRY. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car.

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    Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why ?
    Mr. CURRY. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like we ought to be able to manuever and he felt that this would be too awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner be transferred in a regular police car with detectives.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was a policeman to drive the armored car?
    Mr. CURRY. No; not the armored car.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is that a factor, too--I suppose--it wouldn't be a member of the police force under your control driving that car?
    Mr. CURRY. No; but he felt like Fritz said if anyone tried to take our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our prisoner. So, I didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan, so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail, and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan got there.
    Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11 o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case, how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been shot in the basement.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the hospital in the ambulance?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had been shot and an ambulance had been ordered.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is, the shooting of Oswald?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30, we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail.
    After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that day.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through the Main Street ramp?
    Mr. CURRY. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I understood that he told some more people that up in the jail.
    After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try to find out what happened.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. And who was that ?
    Mr. CURRY. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones.
    Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to them?
    Mr. CURRY. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why and how it occurred.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to find out exactly the truth?

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    Mr. CURRY. Yes; absolutely.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, I did.
    Mr. HUBERT. And I take it, of course, that you studied it ?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings as to how Ruby entered and so forth.
    Mr. CURRY. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main Street ramp.
    Mr. HUBERT. From your study of the report and all the statements that you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report?
    Mr. CURRY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up. It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city hall.
    Mr. HUBERT. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn?
    Mr. CURRY. Vaughn--Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main Street ramp.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; they left it up to me.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of pleasing the press entered into any of these plans?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been--the like of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century.
    I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed to see a prisoner.
    There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than some of the other cases we have handled. But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press present.
    Mr. HUBERT. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald, and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And allowed them to take pictures?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and use another route in making the transfer at another time?

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    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he wanted to transfer this prisoner.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the press?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been satisfactory to you?
    Mr. CURRY. I would not have complained about it.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by considerations of the press?
    Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this--that he didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him any trouble.
    Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to move him at night was dictated by considerations of security?
    Mr. CURRY. I believe so; yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown?
    Mr. CURRY. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment, our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some detectives and news media.
    Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more?
    Mr. CURRY. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there that he had to guard.
    Mr. HUBERT. And he was standing right in the middle of it ?
    Mr. CURRY. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could have gotten in.
    Mr. HUBERT. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his assignment?
    Mr. CURRY. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was 10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by.
    Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page "Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition

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of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am placing my initials.
    With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963, and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas, Tex. April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry," and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of the second page.
    Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the record will show we both are talking about the same document?
    Mr. CURRY, Okay.
    (Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
    Mr. HUBERT. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; I will.
    (Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.)
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of those documents?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; I looked them over.
    Mr. HUBERT. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the interviews that they purport to cover?
    Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into the record what is correct and not what is not correct.
    Mr. CURRY. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir.
    Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or deletions?
    Mr. CURRY. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know--as far as I can recall, this is about what happened.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff prior to this time?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my office.
    Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes.
    Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation that has not been covered here?
    Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty to say anything you want to say.
    Mr. CURRY. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial.
    According to the information that was given to me by the homicide bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of law. Jack Ruby--I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted police business with him at his place of business There were a few, perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority of the police department.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald.
    Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your observations about it?

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    Mr. CURRY. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to shoot Oswald.
    Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything?
    Mr. CURRY. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find.
    Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for such?
    Mr. CURRY. Yes; we certainly were.
    Mr. HUBERT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence?
    Mr. CURRY. Proper action would have been taken.
    Mr. HUBERT. And by that you mean what?
    Mr. CURRY. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he would have been filed on by us.
    Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did, and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence which might throw light on that matter?
    Mr. CURRY. This investigation which was conducted was a completely impartial investigation. We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the department has not been questioned.
    Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has been no effort to cover up?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it.
    Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby came through one man?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. And that was Vaughn ?
    Mr. CURRY. That's right.
    Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, chief?
    Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe not.
    Mr. HUBERT. Well, Sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record in this matter.
    Mr. CURRY. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have this thing occur.
    Mr. HUBERT. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much, chief.
    Mr. CURRY. All right. Thank you.