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TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND beginning at 2H165...
Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr.
Rowland?
Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your address?
Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney.
Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside?
Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?
Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.
Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.
Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?
Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?
Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please?
Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status.
Mr. ROWLAND. Married.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married?
Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months.
Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir?
Mr. ROWLAND. High school.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs, Exchange Lumber
Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and' part time at West
Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer.
Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some
postgraduate
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work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P. F. Collier Co.
Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising.
Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present
time?
Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present.
Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just
mentioned?
Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter?
Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health.
Mr. ROWLAND. Good.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very good.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago.
Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?
Mr. ROWLAND. No: I don't remember it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 2020?
Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that.
Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.
Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located?
Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months.
Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you
occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?
Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working
part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of
November 22, 1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on
Friday.
Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High.
Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm
Streets in Dallas, approximately?
Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that
morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We
went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do some shopping. We
went early so we could see the President's motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town?
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Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town
approximately a quarter to 12.
Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. The same; Adamson.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end?
Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at
approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?
Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked, about five
or six blocks.
Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk?
Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main
and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say up to Akard. We walked
from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we walked back down Commerce and then over to the
sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately
picked to watch the parade?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that
area.
Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which
has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask you if you can
identify what scene this represents.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can.
Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that?
Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the
President was assassinated.
Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple
underpass.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where
you were standing as best you can recollect it?
Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this
building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this
direction.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you an
identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No.
354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible
to the point where you were standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on
that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the left of it, about
the third window or right here in this area.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. (Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. What time were you positioned?
Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12.
Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of
the next half hour?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many
people on this comer.
Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we
came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and Main. We came back to
Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd
there so we went back to where we were.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's
motorcade passed by you?
Mr. ROWLAND. At that position. (Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V,"
inverted "V."
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Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had
moved when you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and Houston.
Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner. (Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you
have marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.
Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?
Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a
crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be pushing or rushing in
that area and it would be too crowded for us.
Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.
Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the
corner of Main and Houston.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if
you would, where you moved next.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was
quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.
Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position
"V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my
watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.
Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it.
I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is
depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the
crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself,
in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same
photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit No. 356.
Mr. ROWLAND. I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and
ask you if you can identify what that represents?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building.
This is the school book depository building.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22,
1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.
Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.
Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a
physics notebook.
Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.
Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor
other than the first floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various
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positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas
School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed
there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions
that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on
your return to position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.
Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at
about that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security
precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the
policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch
crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that
with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We
looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man
back from the window, not hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly
high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the
rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know,
and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to
us that it is a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in
windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as
that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission
Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken
immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs
of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each
pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.
Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the
first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows,
not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both
windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the
window.
It was this pair of windows here at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those
windows were open?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.
Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?
Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be
halfway of the entire length of the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted
here in Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and
rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.
Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black
pencil please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?
Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.
Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip
of the end of the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
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Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few
minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence.
Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where
you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?
(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)
Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know
for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?
Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such
distances?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know,
elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its
distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best r can recollect it was within 150 to
175 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity
than you already have?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a
.30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by
that?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer
hunting. It is an import.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer
with?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one
of the most popular for deer hunting.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps
identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?
Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range
which had telescopic sights?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on
it.
Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your
stepfather owned?
Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar
manufacture.
Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom
you observed?
Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position
such as port arms in military terms.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand
with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right
hand.--
Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being
lower on the trigger of the stock.
Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding
would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.
Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?
Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest
position?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.
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Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the
individual whom you saw?
Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I
couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but
tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in
proportion to his size his build was slender.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what
height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is
something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position
because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair
complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.
Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his
hair?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of
hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?
Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I
know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it
appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he
was wearing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white
or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was
unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at
least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell
from that I didn't see but a small portion.
Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.
Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the
top half?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.
Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the
window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to
about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the
window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back.
I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of
vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view
where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again
in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his
waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to
see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
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Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of
that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of
his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is
something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance
or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?
Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his
face and his chest and the front of him?
Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window
and watching the crowd in particular.
Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.
Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.
Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and
Main?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general
vicinity of where I was.
Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front
of the building that you have indicated?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to see
his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could
have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was
watching that corner, I don't know.
Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the
rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle,
just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the
rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.
Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?
Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below
his waist.
Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?
Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel
being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.
Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that
man?
Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I
remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured
because of the distance, I mean.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the
man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.
Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in
his thirties?
Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's
attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when
we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision.
Representative FORD. So she never saw him?
Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.
Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old
you thought he was?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his
thirties, early thirties.
Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a
conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him
there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little
past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was
positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my
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wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher
came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in
the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this
was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this
man immediately after you saw him?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?
Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.
Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have
been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions?
Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to
acknowledge the figure with no description.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe
20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, I
noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 to 20 seconds. This is all
relatively very short length of time.
Mr. SPECTER. Now--
Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time.
Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she
look in the direction of the man?
Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in
that direction.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the
window where you had seen him?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you
observe in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then.
Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional
conversation about this man in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds
that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he
could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you
discussed with your wife at that juncture?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think so.
Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as
you had this conversation with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.
Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say?
Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet.
Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in
that line of vision?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and
a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This was a distance
of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, just a little further than the
officer.
Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than
10 to 15 feet?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we
selected that spot.
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Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and
tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?
Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't.
Representative FORD. It never entered your mind?
Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I must
honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the attempted assassination of
Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret Service men up in the building such as that with
rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the
other one, Franklin Roosevelt. and both of these had Secret Service men up in windows or
on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't
alarm me.
Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might
have made a difference. It very well could have.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any
distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that
sort which you could observe?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There
could have. been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you know, a blotch or
such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as
specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time
you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating
what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it.
Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper.
I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret
Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there,"
and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly
across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an
epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and
there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance,
this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period
of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on
that end, the two open windows, is I think what 1 said, and I said, "He is not there
now."
I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her
just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open
collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much
detail as I have to you to her.
Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you
have to us?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but
he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. Then
we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with Mr.
Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after
that we started discussing that it was a security man.
We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted
that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct itself; some 20 or 30,
I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that immediate area.
Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did
this conversation with your wife take place?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again
looked at my watch.
Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that
there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window? Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I
did, constantly.
Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did
you ever see anything else in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few
seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could
point him out to my wife.
Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told
the
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shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that
window at that time.
Representative FORD. At what time was that?
Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this
man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man
standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the
one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you
saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window
was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor.
Representative FORD. When did you notice him?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.
Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the
window with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks
that the people were hanging out the windows I think the majority of them were colored
people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made
several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I
continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.
Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you
periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man
with the rifle What happened as the motorcade came along?
Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of
excitement. 1 didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the
President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again.
Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials
in it at the outset of the motorcade?
Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a
white- or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this;
rather husky men, large men. I think there were four in this car.
Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.
Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?
Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.
Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during
this period of time at the School Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down
Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's
clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her
appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor
Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that as.
Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a
crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes
clothes.
Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came
into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation
between you and your wife concerning this man?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
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You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would
you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone
hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone
hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.
Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw
the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can
what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I
didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging
out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have
drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where
you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit
356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.
Here on this floor.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "0" if you
will.
Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and
this pair.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "0" and one "D," if you will.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "0." You say two Negro women?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one
window or what?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window
"D" there was one, one window open.
Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two
heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging Out the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait
a minute yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. They
were all open to the fullest extent they would open.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and
"G," please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked
"E," "F," and "G"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open,
and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window.
Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be
several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't remember, you know I
couldn't see all of them.
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Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?
Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I
think there was one person in each window.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other
window or hanging out of any other window in the building?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to
my recollection.
There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls
or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there
was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with
respect to everybody hanging out the windows?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that
double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the
way it would open.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2 1/2 feet?
Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.
Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open
3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set
marked "A," was that completely closed?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B,"
was either of those windows open?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people
you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or
"B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in
these windows that I saw--
Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first
window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people
you saw in window "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either
two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B"
or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it
was one of the windows on the corner.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window
"B" were white or Negro?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window
"A" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman in
that window until the President's procession passed by?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was--
(Short recess.)
Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.
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(Question read.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you
like the question repeated?
Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question.
Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored
man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay. I
was looking back quite often, as I stated.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the
procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?
Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the
speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the
motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked
"A" at the time he departed?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd
around. and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor
did I see him. The colored man went away.
Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man
in the window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time
during that 15 minute interval?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that
time?
Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that--
Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?
Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three
times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to
point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at
practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to
see what I was looking for.
Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to
be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and
approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked
back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and
Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?
Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you
have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front
of you?
Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade
came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.
Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in
observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that
time?
Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who
were standing on the overpass?
Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were
three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass
itself.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?
Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.
Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
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Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the
people on the overpass whom you have just described?
Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B."
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those
individuals?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think
I looked more than once.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the
crowd.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change
at the various times when you looked in that direction?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up
there or anyone else went on.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential
motorcade passed by you?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main.
Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There were quite a few
people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to
prevent this. The car turned--we had more or less a long period of time that they were
within our sight considering some of the other people.
The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding
down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off as a backfire, so did
practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost
everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade
was obscured from our vision by the crowd.
Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a
backfire?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a
lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6
seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report,
I knew what it was, and--
Mr. SPECTER. What was it?
Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and
second sounds you described?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was
any return fire in that sense.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire?
Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession
such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the
report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I
am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being
of the same intensity, I state, because from a different position I know that the same
rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a
position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the
rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?
Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo
effects.
Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study?
Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject?
Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you
insight into that subject matter?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor
gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.
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Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that?
Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name?
Mr. ROWLAND. Sam.
Mr: SPECTER. And at what school does he teach?
Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High
School.
Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there?
Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him?
Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the
first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?
Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely
as could be.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot?
Mr. ROWLAND. The same.
Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of
origin when you heard the first noise?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building
mainly, and as practically any of' the police officers that were there then will tell you,
the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is
where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring
to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?
Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here.
Now most of the officers converged on this area--
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here,". I will get a black
pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the
echo effect?
Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general
vicinity.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of
your circle.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as
to the point of origin or source?
Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the
first shot, in what direction?
Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the
sound of the second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious to
find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.
Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter
"D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?
Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the
sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second
report?
Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb,
out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.
Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?
Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where
we crossed the street to the end of the block.
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Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you
were at the time of the third shot?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car,
that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as well give in to her.
Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of
the railroad yards myself.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book
Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there
earlier in the day?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and
then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the
officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any
attention to it at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the
best of your ability to recollect and estimate?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe
more.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was
driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had
observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to
anyone in an official position?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report
that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close
to position "0," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone
jumped off one of the colonades and started running, there was an officer looking in this
area for footprints and such as this.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and
showed me his ID.
Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a
State, City or Federal official, if you know?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he
follow?
Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for
footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found a fountain pen
that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when
they fell on the ground or such. I picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I
wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the
pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.
Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?
Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was
blowing and it was breezy.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy
coat.
Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.
Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking
and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came I saw a man in the
building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked
two other deputies to take me to his
office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few reporters around. such as this.
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They took my wife and I to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and
everyone. There was no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent,
Agent Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that had seen
another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this
time.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the
sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time.
Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand--
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe--
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph,
as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an
electric typewriter that she brought into the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at
that time.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be
an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the County of Dallas, Tex., on
November 22, 1963, and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a
look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit
which you took on the occasion which you have just related?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife
dragged me across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference
here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a
parade-rest sort of position." That appears--
Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?
Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was a
port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There were--actually, I will say
this, I said what I had to say. The FBI agent reworded it, and she took it down.
Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest"
position?
Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not
notice. when you signed it.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)
Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you
have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw
and heard on that date?
Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the
sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet from there, in
fact.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your
current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about
15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because from my point of
view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen him.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from
your current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after
having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second report and two
between the second and third. It is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle.
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Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in
that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of 8 seconds
between the first and second shots and a time span of 3 seconds between the second and
third shots?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the
statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back from the windows, did you
actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at
variance from your current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown
Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we took the position that
we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" on this other Exhibit 354.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current
recollection and this statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made
this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of
the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle
"A"--pardon me, southeast?
Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there
were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten
statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I
told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or
such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for
us?
(Answer read.)
Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was
purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of that Bureau.
Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which
you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?
Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of
distance that he was from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr.
Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to
the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.
Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record
show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, don't look there, just
tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents
and I don't remember their names.
Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They
came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. There were four
handwritten statements that I signed.
Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what
respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 358
differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.
Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at
that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary
from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein?
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Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here
again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we Stayed
at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window.
Here it states 12 to 15 feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could
have. Everything was confusing.
Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that
the man was back from the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood.
He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was
that wouldn't be very far.
Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November
24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it
taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.
Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?
Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.
Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the
assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was ,taken on Saturday morning before I went to
work because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where I was
working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we
have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, as distinguished
from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of November?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the
agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. made corrections on
this in different parts of it The one on Sunday was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad
and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly
could I identify the man that I saw, his description.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which
you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the
interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window
which you marked with an "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information
in the statement which they took from you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as
an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents
that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just
forgot about it for a while.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of
the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it
though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after
putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?
Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.
Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI
agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to
you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that
impression?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was
again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I
saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man
after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just
trying to find out about or if anyone
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could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They
didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.
Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't
include it?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they
were not interested?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just
mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the
same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.
Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and
finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other
window.
Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see the
man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, I think you referred to
the sun shining in that direction toward the building. Was the sun bright, do you recall
that at all?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't. have any
sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, and I hadn't gotten
any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I could tell he was standing where I seen
him through the window on my right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared
as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the
building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair.
This sun was--that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as I could see, that is
why I was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was.
Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the
building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder?
Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would
have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way
and the sun would have been shining from this area.
Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the
window with the rifle for the FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of
them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It Wasn't a very good
picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I wasn't going to say because I didn't, I
mean. I just couldn't identify him. I wouldn't be I had already resigned myself not to be
given that task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it,
that you resigned yourself to that task?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at
his face.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are
unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle
in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman
in window "A" whom you testified ,you saw?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements to
seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified about three of those
occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and toll us, as best you
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Page 186
can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had
those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.
Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on
that date.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's
house.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being
reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the
24th.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon
on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on me.
Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been
taken on a stenopad?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because
she was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When' was the fourth statement taken?
Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.
Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and--
Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with
identification of the man that I saw.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify
him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who
had interviewed you and taken statements from you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All different?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were
interviewed by the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a
formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me recount that entire
thing to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it?
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Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you
before?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same.
Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by
the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday.
Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December
1st?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was--
Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to
work.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to
writing?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement,
had me recount what I had told the other agents.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if
you recall?
Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could
recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.
Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent
and a Secret Service Agent.
Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not
remember which Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth
statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.
Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you
ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on
any other occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only
two times of the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's
office?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.
Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as
Commission Exhibit 357?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever
been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal Government?
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Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or
representative of the State Government of Texas?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you
testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the window which we have
circled with the "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high
school?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's,
in my senior year I got a couple of B's.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?
Mr. ROWLAND. 147.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?
Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.
Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro
gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height,
weight, age?
Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or
practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was
red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?
Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?
Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very
slender, very thin.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to
complexion?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some
Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it
was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.
Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these
interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that
the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the
"A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when
I read the paper.
Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?
Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the
assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any
particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described,
that you saw in window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI
agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of
it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they--
Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November
23?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to
the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews
you have described?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who
interviewed me where I worked.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission
into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
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Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our
questioning, Your Honor.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356,
357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?
Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in
and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and
science is what I like.
Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you
ever conduct any experiments yourself?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a
basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound.
There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody
around where they can hear it, there is no sound.
Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very interesting, very
fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a
microphone there you have got a receiver.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles,
firing a rifle in relation to sound?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.
Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?
Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a
bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a
big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and
composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon
that. Such as this we did conduct.
Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first
report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?
Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so
I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report.
Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the
Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you
know whether or not any police officers were near you?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.
Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?
Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one.
There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the
boy who had the epileptic fit.
There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There
were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in
that 1 1/2-block area.
Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position
you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up
there?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.
Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the
officer about seeing a man in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time,
what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it
could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.
Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was
at the
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time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been
a--Secret Service man, officer.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back
to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I
pass that area very frequently.
The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?
Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming
here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very
sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it
but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate We will take a short
recess.
(Short recess.)
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