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TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILLbeginning at 6H205...
The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m.. on March
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay
Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. SPECTER, May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present
at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to
the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is
investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to
appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual
assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time.
May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under
date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to
stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the
President's
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Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. HILL I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state
your full name for the record?
Mrs. HILL Jean Lollis Hill.
Mr.-SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964?
Mrs. HILL. I have it here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request?
Mrs. HILL Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I
must have gotten it Monday---no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday---I got it Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21?
Mrs. HILL That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is
present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court
reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being
transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct,
Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about
noontime?
Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School
Depository Building on a grassy slope. and the triangle toward the underpass.
Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?
Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the---
Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded
forward?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs.
Hill?
Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been
walking up and down and back and forth.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?
Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.
Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade
passed by?
Mrs. HILL. You mean---
Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just
tell me in your own way what happened.
Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures
with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we. had only one chance to
get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had
grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time
he drew even with us.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean?
Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I
jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your
picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat---he and Mrs. Kennedy and their
heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat,
which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other
way because there were a lot of people across the street and
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we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I
yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as
he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there
were more shots.
Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether?
Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There
were three shots---one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's
pause, and then I heard more.
Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of
what you described as the first three shots?
Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly---they were rather rapidly fired.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those
three shots?
Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the
first three shots?
Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four Or five shots and perhaps
six, but I know there were more than three.
Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed from the very first shot until the
very last shot, will you estimate?
Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on
the ground after about---during the shooting---right, I would say, just immediately after
she had taken the picture---probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and
grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were
but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.
Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the
shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's
pause and an additional shot or shots.
Mrs. HILL. In what way?
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time
lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third,
or in that manner?
Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I
mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do
with a gun.
Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action?
Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done
with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.
Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your
understanding?
Mrs. HILL. A bolt action.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots,
then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?
Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different---I thought the sequence was
different.
Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence?
Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?
Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear
it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were
at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6.
Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?
Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than
that?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you
recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?
Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat,
slightly turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this
(indicating ).
Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap?
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Mrs. HILL. No--not really.
Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands?
Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy---he was
like this [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his
left?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time?
Mrs. HILL Yes, I was looking right at his face.
Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the
first shot?
Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise
his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he
slumped forward like this [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally
at that exact second?
Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't
know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in
the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I
have heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that
colored your story?
Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots
hit where and everything.
Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit
Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard?
Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr.
Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see
him and I knew that someone had been hit.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car?
Mrs. HILL Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the car or was he
between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he?
Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy?
Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that
there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat---
President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the Jump seat---Governor Connally and
Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents--- people sitting three
positions forward?
Mrs. HILL I saw the Secret Service agents.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now,
familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the
people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that
people were in the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the
right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time?
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Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor.
Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?
Mrs. HILL After the President was shot, but I wouldn't---it wasn't with
the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit
because, well, Just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally
appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?
Mrs. HILL. The second.
Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the
second shot?
Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened---that they had hit
someone in the front part of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?
Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted
his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was-I remarked to my friends in the
police station that day--did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just
rippled up like this.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that?
Mrs. HILL. On the third shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third
shot?
Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again.
Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you
believe you heard?
Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took
the other shots---about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away
from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it
was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always
shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are
getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you
heard the fourth shot?
Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots
rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not---it couldn't have been in the
same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had
been. It was just almost stunned.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you
think the President's car was?
Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further
than a few feet---further down.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now---you mean the fourth, and perhaps the
fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events
were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have
testified about?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on
the ground.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you?
Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the
ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all
around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed
like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving
again.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started
moving again?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene?
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Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the
car.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that?
Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I
ran across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. To the
Mrs. HILL Other side.
Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away
or walking away or something--I would say he was running.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at
the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at
the top of the slope.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository
Building?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At the west end?
Mrs. HILL. More to the west end.
Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building
and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than
the westernmost point?
Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting
with Houston Street---
Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well.
Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing
here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume
that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main
Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.
Mrs. HILL. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large
building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter
"A" where you were at the time the President went by?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine---place him with the letter "X".
Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here---
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of
the street?
Mrs. HILL. He was on the side he wasn't just completely over there, but
he was past the center of the street and we were---
Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".
Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us.
Mrs. HILL Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the
President's car went by?
Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here it was on down a
little way and I ran behind here.
Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran.
Mrs.. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just
right--but I ran approximately right up through here.
Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a
stop on the other side of the street.
Mrs. HILL. These steps.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the
Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site,
there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.
Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side
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Mr. SPECTER. "This side"---you are meaning---the east of it?
Mrs. HILL. The east of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School
Book Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building?
Mrs. HILL.. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where
you were when you first saw that man?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter
"C," where he was? He was very close to you?
Mrs. HILL Well, he was at the top of this hill---you don't leave me any
space in here I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.
Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going?
Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks
to the west?
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything?
Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him?
Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other
people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done
with 'him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I
don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already---I have
told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your
attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?
Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time that's the man that did it.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?
Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean-that was my thought.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand?
Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's
hand.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front?
Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning
and going to the west.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see
him.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time?
Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.
Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been
visible, wouldn't they?
Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any
recollection of seeing his hands?
Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have
been in the position where they could have been observed?
Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon
in either hand?
Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you
first saw him?
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Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?
Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the
reason why I went across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?
Mrs. HILL. That's right-that's the reason I left that spot.
Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved?
Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him.
Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said---I never
did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first
motorcycle that was fight behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in
his face and he was looking all around.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I Just looked at
him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he
ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked
down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down
and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and
this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.
Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you
heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?
Mrs. HILL. I Just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is
shooting back."
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like?
Mrs. HILL. He wasn't
Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?
Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any
meaningful description of him?
Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.
Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it
that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his
whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a
figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like---I
would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I
have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had
been covered at all times and of course I didn't---at that time I didn't realize that the
shots were coming
from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by
the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository---it's right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general
impression the shots were coming from.
Mrs. HILL This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in
there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were
stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--I thought that
probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of
the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?
Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious
recollection I have of that---I mean---until all this other came out---I had always
thought that they came from the knoll.
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Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second
shot came from?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came
from?
Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just
people shooting from the knoll---I did think there was more than one person shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?
Mrs. HILL The way the 'gun report sounded and the difference in the way
they were fired-the timing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second
group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the
sixth shot?
Mrs. HILL.. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired
by someone else.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general
direction of that knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing
them from that knoll?
Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know-I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming
from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service
was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of
those shots?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was
starting to run?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the
ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I
was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't
see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out
there and I couldn't see him---I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something
about---it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got. away,"
or something---I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and
he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and
so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen---where he had gone. By
that time I saw policemen---some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb
here just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and. the policemen
were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I
could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by
anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and every-time anybody would come toward
me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks
were.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to
what point-where? About the point of "D" here?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there after the man?
Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had
gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which
way did he go."
Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?
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Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look
down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was
screaming and moving around.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground?
Point it-out to me on the diagram.
Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and
I saw it right about here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.
Mrs. HILL. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything
more about the identity of the man. Why. did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over
being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the
case?
Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.
Mr. SPECTER. All fight, and why have they made fun of you, because of
your identification of who that man was?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?
Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even
gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car.
Mr. SPECTER. In which car?
Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking
me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in
the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was
something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said,
"I just got to thinking---it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my
girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said,
"I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see
the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And,
when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of
a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses
in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw
this.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL .Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my
husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the record?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on
the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that
everything be written down.
Mrs. HILL. Well.
Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called
Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's
lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it
was going to be taken down.
Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious
when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he
said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog."
Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?
Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of
people.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this
man, can, you describe him in any more detail than you already have?
Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't---I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?
Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing---I would say--he certainly wasn't any
bigger than Jack Ruby.
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Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.
Mr. SPECTER. How about---as he wearing a hat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?
Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the
impression of a brown hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?
Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say. I would say 40.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?
Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?
Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL That, I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about
this man and your reason for moving toward him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do
after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from
different areas, coming and closing this place off and I was dodging them, trying to get
back across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's
Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?
Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he
had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald and--
Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald?
Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave.
She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half---we hadn't even gone down to see
the President that day---we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just
decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the
whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows
her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and
we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on
Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling
around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know---we had been talking about it
so long and she had drilled me so much that we must get out of here. and when I came back
and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean
holding her by the arm and her camera. and telling her she had to go with him, I started
trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we
couldn't go, we had to leave." and I guess by that time I was beginning--until then I
have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know,
it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or
upset in any way until I got back there and then 1 had a sense of urgency, I just knew I
wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think the full impact of
all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there
and to get away and he kept telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically
ran us, and he got-they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time,
and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this
little room and I don't know
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why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything
was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept
standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us
and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you---newspaper reporters?
Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man
from---- a man named Coker John, or John Coker.
Mr. SPECTER. From where?
Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think
he was on an assignment then. He came out---I'm not sure---I thought it was for Life or
Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for-I think he was shooting them
for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about
four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he
said, "You remember me. I saw you in the pressroom that day."
Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the
pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him
more than any---now, I don't remember where I am here.
Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the
county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see
you in your home. Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an
affidavit to the sheriff that day?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government
that day?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to?
Mrs. HILL. I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know?
Mrs. HILL Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret
Service in this case altogether?
Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men
was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I
think---now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret
Service men.
Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them?
Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything?
Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the
sheriff's office.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign
anything?
Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because
they just took us in a little room---
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men?
Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have
told me here today?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots
because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested
that day in those pictures and they got them all from us.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion
after the events on November 22?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal
Government?
Mrs. HILL. The FBI men.
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Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. Several.
Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember?
Mrs. HILL. I don't recall---I was called two or three times at least
after that.
Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who
said he was from the FBI?
Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until
I called back down to check to see.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them
back?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone?
Mrs. HILL.. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?
Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once.
Mr. SPECTER And about when was that
Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this
letter---no; before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and they
came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last
Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th---or the 17th
Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they
had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these things and, I read it
and told them that I had said it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate?
Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was
inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions he asked me weren't
there, nor were they given. I can see how he could have made what he made out of my
statements.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane?
Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about-approximately 4 or 5 weeks ago.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place?
Mrs. HILL. At New York.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at
the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone
conversation?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next
week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed so. I didn't know.
I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was doing in this case.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone?
Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception
that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, and at the
courthouse.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at
the courthouse?
Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked I told him that
we didn't know that we were in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with
police. I mean, this was to us a police station.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you. told him, in addition to
those
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which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things you told Mr. Lane, in
addition to that you have already testified about.
Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so
many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in
telling me all the things you told Mark Lane.
Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement?
Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke---just relax.
Mrs. HILL. I would except I don't have one.
Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can.
Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.
Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the
witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed.
May the record show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are
proceeding.
When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things
you told Mark Lane other than .those which you have already testified about.
Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that---I do want to have you---because I
hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you about a camera team
that came out there to my house that this John Coker was with.
Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that?
Mrs. HILL. That is important .to me and that is the reason why I
digressed and got on that.
Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the
assassination?
Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion?
Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take,
and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they were going to ask
me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their questions, and they set up rather, I
would say they set up hypothetical situations like could he have been shot from the
window, if this is the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a
wound, he had. to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told them and from what I
gathered that day, they did not think I had---I had gotten the idea from them, that there
was speculation or some reasonable doubt that I---that Oswald did not do all the shooting
and that all these shots did not come from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that?
Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked
me.
Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions?
Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them
what I thought would have had to happen in that situation.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would lead
you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best recollection as to what
you think occurred, as to the point where the assassin was, if you have any idea on that
question?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came
from the knoll, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the
shots?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away.
Mrs. HILL That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that
came from the knoll exclusively cause you saw the man running away? And your reaction that
that must have 'been the man who did the shooting?
Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think
that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have already told me
about?
Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your
reaction was at the time.
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Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was
more than one person shooting, as I said before.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me
about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that was more than one
person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why you thought they came from the
knoll---was it first because the way the shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran
away, and then I asked you the second question---did you think perhaps they came from the
knoll exclusively because you saw the man
run away, and you said you thought that might be the case.
Mrs. HILL Could be.
Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings other
than those we have already talked about, which would make you think that the shots came
from the knoll, based on your own. personal observations, recollections or impressions.
Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television
interview which you consider important?
Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused.
Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations,
and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them?
Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have
heard here and there voiced by other people.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on
those various theories?
Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come
to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is going to break
in a little while and we want to put it on first. We want to be ready for it."
Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on?
Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV
either.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview
which you now consider important?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened,
and particularly since I have been questioned these other times.
Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week?
Mrs. HILL. Yes ; and without things of comments, and speculation that I
have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings that have happened to me
that day and as to the way it happened, and frankly, I would either like to say it again
or something---
Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again?
Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning
again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my mind---
Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or
confused by that?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say
about that television interview?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did
you tell him other than that which you have told me here today?
Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the press:
room, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and that we didn't know we
couldn't leave and because they kept standing across the door. and the first time we
really---we were getting tired of it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we
were getting tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and so some
man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say-- $10,000 or something like this for this
picture.
We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was
a representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell that picture
until our representatives have contacted you or a lawyer or something." Anyway, we
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realized at that time we didn't have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean,
we had let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could reproduce it.
They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it could be reproduced?" We
said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought it was--you know, it was fuzzy and
everything, but we were wanting to keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that
picture, and that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about it,
and Mary was getting scared---
Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way?
Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the
original picture, but they had already---AP and UP had already picked it up because
Featherstone stole it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for?
Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture?
Mrs. HILL. This is it.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead.
Mrs. HILL..Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and Mary
was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we were in a press-room and that
he had no right to be holding us and he had no authority and that we could get out of
there, and they kept standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get
out." We kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, We'll get it
back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of the door and as I did, there
was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was told-- that he was a Secret Service man, and he
said, "Do you have a red raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let
me go." I was intent on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I
walked out, "I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said,
"Does your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in
there." He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that
they had been looking for us.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mrs. HILL. This man.
Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.
Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just
about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him
why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been
able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for
the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that time they
didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were right at the car. So, there
followed questioning all afternoon long, and he asked me at one time---well, in fact he
asked repeatedly if I was held and I told him, "Yes."
Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that?
Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane.
Mr. SPECTER. If you were held?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I
told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was just our
own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting the man intimidate us that
had no authority.
Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I
remember clearly that I gave him his name.
Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of
there and I talked with a man---
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told
Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service
man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They keep
saying
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three shots---three shots," and I said, "I know I heard more. I heard from four
to six shots anyway."
He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard
more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all
that we are willing to say right now."
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you
that there were only three shots in any other way than that?
Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to
say three shots"---he didn't tell me what to say.
Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way?
Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane.
Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them---
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way?
Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except
Decker and the President.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said.
Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet
struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you
think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark
Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a
bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue
of the Times Herald.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete?
Mrs. HILL I didn't go back down there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?
Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know
anything about that?
Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of
the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I
don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or
did you stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had to stay there."
He said something-he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him I
wasn't threatened, but-he said, "How do you know you were held?" Or something
like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. At one time I saw people I
knew on the street and I was going to go down and talk to them and I went down and they
came down and got me, and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper
hit the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were Secret
Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There were some kind of deputy
or something that came down and took me back and they were not playing. They meant to take
me back. They did take my arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the
corner saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here just a
little while." They did make us go back in there.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from?
Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just
deputies---they weren't FBI or Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the
sheriff?
Mrs. HILL Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that
they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any time---" I
think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say something or this, that,
and the other," and I said, "The only thing that I was told not to say was to
not mention the man running," and he said, "And why?" And I said,
"Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service that told me not to, but they came in to me
just right after I was taken-I was in there in the pressroom, and
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told me in fact---I told him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you
were wrong about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't."
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong-Featherstone or Lane?
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that---I told Mr. Lane that Mr.
Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, "No;
don't say that any more on the air."
Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?"
Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I
mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to tell
anyone"---
Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the
Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about it, and I said
"Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I ran across the street to
see the man, and that's the part, as much as I can get from when the FBI men came out and
talked to me the other day, that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context,
because what he gave the Commission was basically true.
Mr. SPECTER What Mark Lane gave the Commission?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Except for what
Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there.
Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments?
Mrs. HILL., Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see
why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, .but I can see, taken out of
context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, because he was listening to me how
the Commission could take it to mean maybe something else?
Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission
could take them to mean maybe something else?
Mrs. HILL Yes-
Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context---did
Mark Lane repeat them out of context?
Mrs. HILL. To me they were to me they were it was my comments and it
wasn't everything I said.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took
your comments out of context?
Mrs. HILL. So far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with
Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know about?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about
the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told me you were
interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when you called back to verify it
was the FBI and about a single interview you had with the FBI a week ago today, which
would have been the 17th of March?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any
Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have already told me about?
Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some
questions about your own background-first of all I would like you to tell me how old you
are, for the record?
Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three.
Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of
the country or what?
Mrs. HILL. Where am I from?
Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from?
Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma.
Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma?
Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you married?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
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Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to .your
being married at this moment?
Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce.
Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you?
Mrs. HILL. I have two-a boy 12 and a girl 10.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?
Mrs. HILL I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist
University in Shawnee.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school?
Mrs. HILL 1948.
Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college?
Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time?
Mrs. HILL I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for the
past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the Dallas Board of
Education.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name?
Mrs. HILL. Lollis.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation?
Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately
IBM.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me
which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition.
Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission?
Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the
records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be called anytime. You have
both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the distinction of having been an eye witness.
Mrs. HILL Well, I know, I have always been rather---I mean, it's not
something you are you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part of history and I
was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, because I think my children will be
interested to know that someday that I was in it someway.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are
no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript will be reviewed by
me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington and it is possible that you may be
contacted again. Perhaps I might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it
is even conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in Washington,
but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from
you which we need.
Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to
Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it
is absolutely necessary.
Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much.
Mrs. HILL. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was
used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. 5.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5,
for identification.)
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